Refurbishing a basket case

[Hephaestus]

Looking for some sage advice...

Recently lost dad to Alzheimer's & Parkinson's. Discussion with step mom, I'm running lock step with him on early symptoms - and family doesn't know I've had another diagnosis recently - which also points to a very limited future... If I keep in lock step with Dad - I'm facing 12 years until I'm going to be needing to be in full-time care, assuming the other doesn't get me first.

You can probably understand why I'm staying a bit incognito here now.

Gave up on dreams of flying at 18, focusing on my future instead, I was 4-5 xc hours from my PPL. I've never given up, it's just always been maybe next year. Hell I live at cfx2 (air ranch)

I've spent the last 25 years living to work and taking care of family. Those families decided I was disposable. 

So dreams of retirement travel are looking unrealistic. I think it's time to start enjoying life - and making good memories with the kids while I can. I've never been to Mexico, only spent a week in Florida one Christmas, I've never been to the Yukon or south America, havent been to burning man, never seen New York, never seen a US 4th of July, driving across Canada last summer for a funeral - was a treat for me. I believe its time to start wandering...

Have an inheritance coming, not a lot but it'll fund the kids post secondary. And I'm 100% going to get my PPL this winter. Passed medical already, started ground School.

That doesn't leave 60-80k USD for a nice Mooney to travel in have some budget for repairs maintenance and fuel to travel. 

I come from a millwright background, metal fabrication, composites, wood - I can build. I'm a geek at heart, I understand electronics and can rewire a car at will, I've done many megasquirt conversions . And I've rebuilt more Toyota and Chevy motors than I care to think about.

I'm seriously thinking I should find a "basket case" Mooney - I'd love some tips and suggestions as to how not to get burned. I'm pretty set on likely a M20F, but yes need to keep costs controlled and timeframe as brief as I can. 

If any of you are around cen4/cfx2 id love to know if there's an a&p around who might be willing to oversee and sign off on repairs for closer to beer money than fbo $...

Thanks in advance

[jaylw314]

A lot of whether you get responses will depend on how clear you can be on your future.  I don't think anyone would want to be seen abetting someone who's implied he/she's already misrepresented something on their medical, and who desires to engage in an activity that puts others at risk, not just themselves.

On the other hand, I'm not aware of many medical conditions that are that predictable 12 years out.  Most diagnoses of Alzheimer's and Parkinson's disease are made within 5-7 years of having severe impairments, and most genetic tests do not automatically translate into predictable outcomes, so it's hard to know whether your description is a prediction or just a possibility that has jarred you into action. If it's the latter, I think that is a perfectly fair reason to do something crazy like getting into aviation!

[Hephaestus]

Not fudging any medical, my doctor's fully aware of my dad's scenario. We've discussed the early symptoms - not an issue for now, but yeah - signs are there that I will follow dad's path and timeline. The cancer issue is separate and won't effect medical. But likely will be recurrent. Deal with those as they come. 

Largely, this is me realizing I may not have a long retirement ahead. I'd like my kids remembering having fun with Dad not the old guy not able to get out of a hospital bed.

[MIm20c]

My opinion, you want to start enjoying family time and fly a lot now. This means buy an aircraft that is ready to go. You will have enough fun fixing up the surprises that go along with a decades old inexpensive aircraft. You might be able to save 10-20k by doing a ton of rehab and lots of downtime but that is minor in the overall cost of ownership. 

[1964-M20E]

You say you live in an airpark.  Get to know other airplane owners and their mechanic(s).  Finish getting you PPL and fly a while and decide what your mission is with a plane of your own i.e long cross country to travel or short fun hops around the patch.  Then look for the plane that fits that mission.

Even though you are very mechanically inclined no matter how you slice it, dollar wise, to bring a plane back from years of neglect will almost always cost more than one already flying in good condition.  That being said, there are plenty of short body, C & E, models from the mid 1960s to the mid 1970s that can be had in the $30 to $60k range depending on what overall condition and what avionics are in the plane.  Then use your skills and knowledge working with an A&P and make the plane a little better each year.  When talking with the mechanics talk about you ideas and you goals get the mechanic on board before you find a plane and buy it. 

However, I do very much applaud those here and others who will take a plane and bring it back for the brink of death (deny the grim reaper) and make it fly again.

At the air park do you have an hangar or space for one?  You will need a place to work on it and store it.  While outside will suffice, indoors is much better for everyone involved.

 

[TTaylor]

The bottom line is are you more interested in restoring or flying?

If you want to fly, buy a cheap flying C for low $20k and fly.  If you love restoring, then get a basket case and enjoy the process.

[steingar]

First off, don't get too frightened by your self-diagnosis.  I am the same age my father started showing symptoms of Alzheimers, so I get where you're coming from.  It is possible for a bad day to mimic cognitive decline.

Second, for the most part people restore airplanes because they want to restore airplanes.  Sometimes it works financially, but not often.  Airplanes require airplane parts, which are all expensive.  Moreover, you cannot legally work on your airplane without the involvement of an A&P, and they have to eat.

If it is true that your days are numbered (as are we all) you need to think about how you want to be spending that time.  Any restoration project is going to take oodles of it.  Do you want your time spent building or traveling?

[Hephaestus]

I'm always good for a project. I'd go nuts without, so in this case it seems like better to attack a Mooney project that serves me than something else. I'm always doing something, I don't sit still, or watch TV... 

Mission wise - simple, long hauls from here to somewhere interesting (500+ mi) for 2-3 days stretches with 2 kidlets aboard. Probably not IFR but we'll see how that plays out and what equipment comes with the purchase. It's been 25 years but I tend to do my long haul driving at night, wouldn't be surprised if that was my flying style too.

Medical - yep no guarantee. I could get hit by a truck tomorrow. Or I could live to 104. But at the moment, dad's neurologist suggested that I'm likely not to expect the later, and he will be following me every 6 months going forward.

The winter is my slow season at work, so I'll be doing PPL, that still leaves a fair bit of idle time that I can either invest in something unnecessary - I've been wanting to build an MGB forever too; or invest in time / labour into an aircraft. If I can get into an out of annual M20F - spend the time getting it cleaned up, that seems like a good plan doesn't it?

[jaylw314]

23 minutes ago, Hephaestus said:

I'm always good for a project. I'd go nuts without, so in this case it seems like better to attack a Mooney project that serves me than something else. I'm always doing something, I don't sit still, or watch TV... 

Mission wise - simple, long hauls from here to somewhere interesting (500+ mi) for 2-3 days stretches with 2 kidlets aboard. Probably not IFR but we'll see how that plays out and what equipment comes with the purchase. It's been 25 years but I tend to do my long haul driving at night, wouldn't be surprised if that was my flying style too.

Medical - yep no guarantee. I could get hit by a truck tomorrow. Or I could live to 104. But at the moment, dad's neurologist suggested that I'm likely not to expect the later, and he will be following me every 6 months going forward.

The winter is my slow season at work, so I'll be doing PPL, that still leaves a fair bit of idle time that I can either invest in something unnecessary - I've been wanting to build an MGB forever too; or invest in time / labour into an aircraft. If I can get into an out of annual M20F - spend the time getting it cleaned up, that seems like a good plan doesn't it?

If you're wanting a true project, I'd suggest thinking about building an RV kit.  There would be no requirement for annual's or IA involvement (although helpful to have an A&P or a local EAA chapter show you the ropes).  The work involved is something around 1500-2500 man hours, and both the short-term and long-term costs would be less.

If you were looking to have a plane to fly tomorrow, this is obviously less desirable, but your description of your time and your willingness to consider a "basket case" M20 suggests that you are willing to get your hands dirty for a few years before flying.

[Hephaestus]

I'm thinking certified not owner maintained makes most sense... homebuilt, owner maintained and the fringes - don't cross borders well. And RVs command higher prices than Mooney's sadly. 

I'd like something.i.can transition right into come spring (if not finish my PPL in). So maybe basket case isn't the correct word, but needing attention? 

Don't need a 4 year project to get there - but I'm more than happy to redo a bunch to get it into decent shape too.

Edited September 25, 2018 by Hephaestus
Finish thought

[DualRatedFlyer]

49 minutes ago, Hephaestus said:

I'm always good for a project. I'd go nuts without, so in this case it seems like better to attack a Mooney project that serves me than something else. I'm always doing something, I don't sit still, or watch TV... 

Mission wise - simple, long hauls from here to somewhere interesting (500+ mi) for 2-3 days stretches with 2 kidlets aboard. Probably not IFR but we'll see how that plays out and what equipment comes with the purchase. It's been 25 years but I tend to do my long haul driving at night, wouldn't be surprised if that was my flying style too.

Medical - yep no guarantee. I could get hit by a truck tomorrow. Or I could live to 104. But at the moment, dad's neurologist suggested that I'm likely not to expect the later, and he will be following me every 6 months going forward.

The winter is my slow season at work, so I'll be doing PPL, that still leaves a fair bit of idle time that I can either invest in something unnecessary - I've been wanting to build an MGB forever too; or invest in time / labour into an aircraft. If I can get into an out of annual M20F - spend the time getting it cleaned up, that seems like a good plan doesn't it?

M20F driver here - just completed first year of ownership.  The comments above are 100% spot on. 

Plenty of work left over to tinker and customize on an airplane that is airworthy and turnkey.  Buy affordable turnkey now - finish your PPL in it and then enjoy the classic upgrades - installing a new panel, new airtex seats and carpet, Bruce Jaeger interior, J style windscreen, one piece rear window, the infamous pee-tube, heck - even fixing the plastic panel cracks are enough to keep a man busy for the foreseeable future.  If you get bored with it, try your hand at making a new glareshield like the one fellow on here.  These things are great things to tinker with at the hanger and have your A&P signoff where required.   

The more time you can spend in the airplane instead of under it the better.  You will enjoy it more, complete your training faster, and be an all around better pilot.  If maintenance is your passion, then by all means buy a fixer-upper.  If you stare at the sky every time you hear an airplane fly by, then you need to buy something that enables you to join them. 

Been very happy with my M20F - wouldnt trade it for the world.   

[jaylw314]

52 minutes ago, Hephaestus said:

I'm thinking certified not owner maintained makes most sense... homebuilt, owner maintained and the fringes - don't cross borders well. And RVs command higher prices than Mooney's sadly. 

I'd like something.i.can transition right into come spring (if not finish my PPL in). So maybe basket case isn't the correct word, but needing attention? 

Don't need a 4 year project to get there - but I'm more than happy to redo a bunch to get it into decent shape too.

That makes sense, forget the RV idea.  We prefer Mooney's anyway

[MyNameIsNobody]

My sage advice is stop talking about it and do “it”.  Find a decent F and buy it.  Learn to fly it and use the %^&* out of it before you become your dad.  DO IT.

[steingar]

Nothing wrong with an F, though the short bodies are far less expensive.  How badly do you need that back seat?  It is true if you really want to tinker and are good at it (Unlike yours truly) you might be able to find an A&P who gets to know and trust you and can sign off your work for beer and peanuts.  Scratch the peanuts, everyone seems to have allergies.

The other nice thing about the short body Mooneys is they come with Johnson bar gear, which needs little maintenance and is not prone to failure or malfunction.

[bonal]

I don't think you will find a single person here that won't agree that any one of these 40 plus year old Mooneys no matter how nice will not provide lots of opportunities to work on and spend precious time tinkering with to make them your own. As Nobody  aka Scott stated find one that fits and is ready to fly and get your butt in the left seat and start enjoying it ASAP

[skydvrboy]

Like @DualRatedFlyer  I just completed my first year of ownership in an F model.  The plane I bought was airworthy and in annual, but had been neglected, or as they say in real estate, it had deferred maintenance.  I got it cheap and have already put over $10k just fixing the things that are needed to bring the maintenance up to date: tires, pucks, exhaust, fuel servo, engine mounts, etc.  I've also logged over 100 hours in it while doing all those "upgrades."  I doubt I'm too far upside down in it right now if I had to sell it, because I have focused on only eliminating the big negatives that made it so cheap in the first place.

I may end up spending more in the long run by the time I get the plane improved to where I want it, but I will have had the use of it all those years too.  So, buy the cheapest plane that is airworthy, fly the $#!& out of it, and put your skills to work keeping it airworthy.  Finally, don't shy away from a C or E model, for you and 2 kids, there won't be enough difference in functionality to worry about.

[jaylw314]

@M20Doc, do you happen to know of any mechanics who've done owner assisted maintenance in @Hephaestus's area (I think Calgary)?

[carusoam]

Welcome aboard, Hephaestus...

Like everybody else get started.

Most people prefer to learn to fly in a trainer. Then transition into their Mooney...

You can read about all kinds of cognitive issues people have around here.  Look up the word distraction and you may find a few ordinary brains doing some pretty disorderly things...

Not being very familiar with brain health issues, I find Mooney Aviation to be great cognitive exercise, which is known to hold off the effects of aging....

Join us, read, write, fly Mooneys...  find other people that are in a similar boat as you... see how they handle the path going forwards.

Often, some pilots pair up... some have money and lack health... some are really young and lack money... partnerships can really work.

I enjoy your direct to the point-edness.

You will know yourself, better than anyone else...

M20Cs can make really nice entry level and long term use planes.  I had one for a decade....

Did your doctor give advice on exercise, diet, things to avoid?  Exercise... Improving blood flow to the brain is good for delivering O2. Flying is pretty good exercise.

PP thoughts only, not a brain expert....

Best regards,

-a-

[Guest]

While not a basket case here is an F model in need of and engine.  It’s in Canada already so no importation required.  

http://www.apexaircraft.com/search.asp

I don’t know of any AME’s in the west to suggest for owner maintenance, but I’m sure they exist.

Clarence

 

Edited September 26, 2018 by M20Doc

[FloridaMan]

You're not factoring in that if you buy right, you can fly it and get your money back out of it. It will cost you more to fix one up than it will cost to get one that's already right. It's why so many solid airframes that have sat for so long end up getting parted out. 

[gsxrpilot]

I hear two constraints, time and money. Therefore I'd say you're best off looking for an M20C. If you want a bit of a project, get one that could use some updating but is airworthy and flying today. You should be able to get into one for $30K and fly it regularly while you do things like update interior or upgrade avionics. The kids will fit just fine in the back seat even into adulthood. There's nothing wrong with an F other than an airworthy C will be the same price as that basket case F and the C will be flying. 

If you said you were about to finish your A&P and were looking for a project, it would make more sense. But you're about to finish your PPL and that sounds like you're gonna want to fly.  Get an M20C and go fly.

[Hephaestus]

I was going to check out the eaa chapter at cen4 this winter, pretty sure they'll have a line on an A&P who's friendly... 

@carusoam nothing's proven to hold it off. He gave me a huge stack of research and the usual quit smoking eat healthy get excercise, don't be a couch potato. Eat fish and omega 3s... Excercise your brain, have you seen this app?

  But yeah some kind of brain scan coming up, there's some drug in testing he'd like to try me on - prevents accumulation of a protein inhibitor or somesuch? Since Dad was a severe case, and I'm starting to show some early symptoms - the neurologist would like to track things a little closer...

Don't need an F, a C would do - I thought the Fs were a little less valuable due to slower and lower payload? Or did I read that wrong? 

I'm a big strapping Scottish lad - 6'3" 250lbs. 6yr old is a beanpole, princess we're waiting to see ... So do I need a big backseat 4 seater - not really. 

Like I said main goal - take advantage of weekends and get away from home. Have some fun experiences, Gros Morne has been calling me since before it was a park. I see there's a nice airstrip on the North end too  

There's got to be a midline? Between basket case and scrap right? Probably something with a rough interior and God awful colored exterior (will wrap - I had that charcoal grey / red Mooney M20 poster on my wall as a kid - I think that's what I need, and I know a guy...). Like I said I'm going to have some time while I beat up on a flight schools aircraft to get things together, hangar space is 5 minutes away and relatively cheap compared to some localish places (this airport was closed for a year because transport Canada changed its requirements, still hasn't recovered)

 

 

[Hank]

You'll get good use from a C. We love ours! Going into the 11th great year. 

[Guest]

23 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I hear two constraints, time and money. Therefore I'd say you're best off looking for an M20C. If you want a bit of a project, get one that could use some updating but is airworthy and flying today. You should be able to get into one for $30K and fly it regularly while you do things like update interior or upgrade avionics. The kids will fit just fine in the back seat even into adulthood. There's nothing wrong with an F other than an airworthy C will be the same price as that basket case F and the C will be flying. 

If you said you were about to finish your A&P and were looking for a project, it would make more sense. But you're about to finish your PPL and that sounds like you're gonna want to fly.  Get an M20C and go fly.

While a C might make good sense,  the cost of importing one to Canada is too great @ about $10k, plus 13% tax due at import.  He needs to find something already in the country and there are only 341 Mooney’s of all models registered here.

Clarence

[carusoam]

Heph,

The nice thing about cognitive apps....

you can get a baseline of how well you are today...  and then compare yourself to your baseline as time goes on...

It takes a fair amount of effort, because the more you use the app, the better you get at all the various skills...

If you don’t use the app, the app skills will fade a bit...

There is a fair amount of value that comes from it.  It is the cognitive exercise that is designed to work with the various cognitive functions that the brain has.... Thinking speed, memory issues, doing multiple things at the same time....

On the other hand, it may continue to deliver bad news as things deteriorate...

I have the honor of working with people that are trying to improve their cog skills...  exercise, diet, and various methods of cognitive exercises all help... puzzles, crosswords, or craftsmanship types projects...

Many people have used the App called Lumosity.  The basic level is free... works for both PCs and iPads...

USA Today (the rag paper) has a daily crossword puzzle... easy to do on Tuesdays.... really harder as the week goes on... 

It  really helps to want to do this cog work.  If it is too much of a chore, it is easy to not use it...

it’s like going to the gym... some people actually enjoy it!

For motivation, find the pics of the Mooney pilots on the beach where they flew in the carribean.... 

On a positive note... there are major pharma companies currently working on improving this ‘disease’... Unfortunately, not an easy problem to solve....

If Apps aren’t your thing... do a lot of reading and writing...  MS is a good resource...

PP thoughts only, not CFI, mechanic, or brain technician...

Best regards,

-a-