Check for gear down, again and again....

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

I know this is done regularly, and taught regularly, but it has never made sense to me. Does it really matter if the gear is down on downwind ? Does it really matter if the gear is down on base ? All that really matters is if the gear is down before the wheels touch. Giving a bit of a cushion and to take some "busyness" away from short final, I find one gear down check (actually I do one complete GUMPS check, touching each of the items as I call them out) right after turning final to be sufficient. It isn't like once you've verified the gear is down just one time, it is going to come back up by itself.

Yes it does.  If my gear is not down by then, I have already forgotten it twice. Not a good sign. Probably means a number of other things are wrong and I'd better start paying attention.

 

[KLRDMD]

2 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

Yes it does.  If my gear is not down by then, I have already forgotten it twice. Not a good sign. Probably means a number of other things are wrong and I'd better start paying attention.

You don't ever do long straight in finals to airports when no one else is in the pattern ? As long as the gear is down on short final, I'm fine. I may also choose to keep the gear up until final when flying a normal traffic pattern, maybe in the event of an engine failure when I'm still flying normally and the single engine guys are in the weeds somewhere.

[gsxrpilot]

I'm with @KLRDMD, I don't like to put the gear down until I have the runway made. Of course it's different on an instrument approach.

[kortopates]

I always have the gear down as I am entering the pattern since it helps stabilize and slows the aircraft to pattern speed. But I very much share the sentiment or concern of wanting to make sure the runway can always be made. But IMO, the solution to ensuring this is in the pattern we fly. I fly and encourage the FAA standard pattern of 1/2 to max 1 mile abeam (right out of the FAA flying handbook). My typical pattern is right at the middle of that at ~2/3 to 3/4 nm abeam the runway and start the base at the 45 degree mark. I am not worried about not making the airport with that pattern. But my third and final check is on short final looking at the numbers, which always includes checking the floor indicator.

Yet at an uncontrolled field, and even towered airports, I constantly get behind someone in a much slower C150 or C172 that thinks they're a B747 with a 1.5 mile abeam downwind and then fly a good mile past the 45 for good measure. I haven't forgotten why student pilots fly those kind of patterns, but too many CFI's do them a disservice by not teaching a proper pattern that begins with the power reduction and descent abeam the intended landing point. Its my biggest pet peeve in the pattern as I do feel vulnerable following traffic like that when there is no reason for it. Easily fixed too by an instructor that starts pulling the power for them!

Edited June 26, 2018 by kortopates

[whiskytango]

Take advantage of any on-board equipment that can act as a memory aid to make sure the gear is down.  I have a Shadin Altitude Alerter that can be set to go off at MDA / DH.  I check the gear when the alarm goes off.  You can also use the ForeFlight 500 AGL callout with a Bluetooth headset to check the gear.  

[steingar]

So far I’ve practiced having gear and flaps down before I hit the pattern. My thinking is if I’m in the proximity of the airport I should have my head outside the cockpit and not be fooling with systems. Of course, I’m still VFR, and really don’t know how this will shape up once I hit the IFR world. I’ll find out soon enough.

if you’re in the pattern at pattern altitude, even dirty you’ll make the field of the mill quits. You may have to adjust where you turn downwind, but you’ll make it.

[Yetti]

5 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

You don't ever do long straight in finals to airports when no one else is in the pattern ? As long as the gear is down on short final, I'm fine. I may also choose to keep the gear up until final when flying a normal traffic pattern, maybe in the event of an engine failure when I'm still flying normally and the single engine guys are in the weeds somewhere.

You can make the runway with the gear down from the threshold on downwind.  "If you can't get the plane slowed down, your gear may still be up."

[Yetti]

4 hours ago, kortopates said:

I always have the gear down as I am entering the pattern since it helps stabilize and slows the aircraft to pattern speed. But I very much share the sentiment or concern of wanting to make sure the runway can always be made. But IMO, the solution to ensuring this is in the pattern we fly. I fly and encourage the FAA standard pattern of 1/2 to max 1 mile abeam (right out of the FAA flying handbook). My typical pattern is right at the middle of that at ~2/3 to 3/4 nm abeam the runway and start the base at the 45 degree mark. I am not worried about not making the airport with that pattern. But my third and final check is on short final looking at the numbers, which always includes checking the floor indicator.

Yet at an uncontrolled field, and even towered airports, I constantly get behind someone in a much slower C150 or C172 that thinks they're a B747 with a 1.5 mile abeam downwind and then fly a good mile past the 45 for good measure. I haven't forgotten why student pilots fly those kind of patterns, but too many CFI's do them a disservice by not teaching a proper pattern that begins with the power reduction and descent abeam the intended landing point. Its my biggest pet peeve in the pattern as I do feel vulnerable following traffic like that when there is no reason for it. Easily fixed too by an instructor that starts pulling the power for them!

my downwind is .85nm from the runway.   We have a house on the downwind to a popular uncontrolled field.    I would say 97% of pilots fly a pattern greater than a mile away from the runway on the downwind.      I get very bored following other traffic in to landing.  I end up doing lots of gumps checks to make sure I have done everything.  Gear make great speed brakes.

[midlifeflyer]

15 hours ago, KLRDMD said:

You don't ever do long straight in finals to airports when no one else is in the pattern ? As long as the gear is down on short final, I'm fine. I may also choose to keep the gear up until final when flying a normal traffic pattern, maybe in the event of an engine failure when I'm still flying normally and the single engine guys are in the weeds somewhere.

Of course I do. I wasn't criticizing your methodology. Different pilots have different gear-down SOPs. I don't think any are "wrong" so long as they work and are done consistently. In yours, anything before short final is superfluous. In mine, if my gear is not  already down by the time I am on downwind or base (if there is a downwind or base), I have already forgotten the gear.

[midlifeflyer]

14 hours ago, kortopates said:

But I very much share the sentiment or concern of wanting to make sure the runway can always be made.

I like good patterns but I've never shared the concern borne in the early days of aviation and unreliable motors,  that after a 3 hour cross country flight in which all systems were running perfectly, our engines will choose to quit just as we arrive at our destination and extend out downwind for traffic. Can it happen? Sure. Is it likely? I don't think the accident records support the notion that it is. 

[Yetti]

6 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

I like good patterns but I've never shared the concern borne in the early days of aviation and unreliable motors,  that after a 3 hour cross country flight in which all systems were running perfectly, our engines will choose to quit just as we arrive at our destination and extend out downwind for traffic. Can it happen? Sure. Is it likely? I don't think the accident records support the notion that it is. 

I kind of think the engine out on downwind was made up a long time ago by a bored flight instructor.   Which turned into a power off 180 skills test for commercial and then when the internet was borne, hours and hours of discussion on multiple internet sites.

[steingar]

I think lots of people have run out of power once entering the pattern because they weren't very good at fuel management.

[midlifeflyer]

10 minutes ago, Yetti said:

I kind of think the engine out on downwind was made up a long time ago by a bored flight instructor.   Which turned into a power off 180 skills test for commercial and then when the internet was borne, hours and hours of discussion on multiple internet sites.

I go along with the idea it is based on the early days. Engines were very unreliable and a power change could easily turn into an engine-out. You really needed to ensure you could make the runway at that first power reduction from the pattern.

[Yetti]

Just now, midlifeflyer said:

I go along with the idea it is based on the early days. Engines were very unreliable and a power change could easily turn into an engine-out. You really needed to ensure you could make the runway at that first power reduction from the pattern.

There were some planes with I think the radial that spun around the crankshaft that only had on and off.   There was no idle setting.   So they would kill the engine to get down.   I could see it not restarting at a bad time.   But that is no reason to fly your C150 on a business jet pattern downwind.   I have seen the business jets that fly out of the airport be inside the pattern of most pilots.

[Mooneymite]

It really amuses me when I enter the pattern in a jet and find there's a small single engine aircraft with a significantly wider pattern than ours.

It is amusing, but I firmly believe that each pilot must fly a pattern that is in keeping with his ability/proficiency.  If a guy is only comfortable with 10 degrees of bank in his turns, then that is what he should do.  He should also get some more training.  

[Marauder]

It really amuses me when I enter the pattern in a jet and find there's a small single engine aircraft with a significantly wider pattern than ours.
It is amusing, but I firmly believe that each pilot must fly a pattern that is in keeping with his ability/proficiency.  If a guy is only comfortable with 10 degrees of bank in his turns, then that is what he should do.  He should also get some more training.  

My hangar faces the final at my airport. On the weekends, I set up a lounge chair and watch the festivities. Here are my observations:

1) Airline pilots who buy or build RVs ALWAYS fly final with a good dose of power in. And I mean ALWAYS!
2) A good number of student pilots are being taught to fly too low and with power on.
3) About 75% of planes on final are making power adjustments, some of them pretty significant adjustments. Presumably because they appear to be low and slow.
4) One particular doctor flies so wide and low that I lose sight of him on downwind behind the trees and when he does reappear he is so low and close to the power lines on final that I have nicknamed him “Dr. Floss”.
5) Glider tow pilots seem to forget they have a tow rope behind them. Bzzzz Bzzzz


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

[midlifeflyer]

3 hours ago, Yetti said:

  But that is no reason to fly your C150 on a business jet pattern downwind.   I have seen the business jets that fly out of the airport be inside the pattern of most pilots.

We have both seen the same thing. Most everyone has at this point.

[kortopates]

2 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

It really amuses me when I enter the pattern in a jet and find there's a small single engine aircraft with a significantly wider pattern than ours.

It is amusing, but I firmly believe that each pilot must fly a pattern that is in keeping with his ability/proficiency.  If a guy is only comfortable with 10 degrees of bank in his turns, then that is what he should do.  He should also get some more training.  

 

23 minutes ago, Marauder said:

 

My hangar faces the final at my airport. On the weekends, I set up a lounge chair and watch the festivities. Here are my observations:

1) Airline pilots who buy or build RVs ALWAYS fly final with a good dose of power in. And I mean ALWAYS!
2) A good number of student pilots are being taught to fly too low and with power on.
3) About 75% of planes on final are making power adjustments, some of them pretty significant adjustments. Presumably because they appear to be low and slow.
4) One particular doctor flies so wide and low that I lose sight of him on downwind behind the trees and when he does reappear he is so low and close to the power lines on final that I have nicknamed him “Dr. Floss”.
5) Glider tow pilots seem to forget they have a tow rope behind them. Bzzzz Bzzzz
Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro

 

Good observations and so sadly so typical. The pattern is a more risky aspect of the flying we do; especially when we include the runway as well and I believe strongly that the risk all go up dramatically from flying poor patterns. Mark @midlifeflyer is right above in that this risk doesn't stem from lack of engine reliability. But @Mooneymite and @Marauder nail it above. Its the very fear of banking that leads to wide and long patterns, that sets up pilot for all the common mishaps since it leads to going slow and level with lots of power once the pilot gets low. It especially contributes to the fatal stall spin accidents and has certainly got to compound much of the runway loss of control we see from pilots dragging it in with lots of power to the runway. Such a practice leaves them with large excess of forward energy compared to if they were coming in steeper with very little power with the flare dissipating a much greater proportion of the remaining forward energy in the roll out. But that very fear of over banking, is causing pilots to instead maintain high AOA, often with lots of power once they realize they are low, and they end up putting themselves into the danger they were improperly trying to avoid. Its add to their vulnerability to downdrafts and stall/spin etc. Yet their fear of steeper bank angles is unfounded by the laws of physics when one is no longer maintaining 1G unaccelerated level flight but is in a descent with a negative AOA with the wings unloaded. So I believe the issue is largely training to learn that by starting  a constant descent from abeam the intended point of landing and unloading the wing that a trimmed aircraft is in no danger of stalling in the pattern. At least not while their maintaining that constant descent to the runway. Things only go wrong when they start pulling the yoke back. Keep the pattern to a standard pattern and there won't be a need.       

[Yetti]

1 minute ago, midlifeflyer said:

We have both seen the same thing. Most everyone has at this point.

<SoapboxOut>  It is my hope that everyone is developing their pilot skill to a much higher level.  There are times when you need to be able to pull your pilot tricks out of the bag.  Given my recent spark plug incident I was really glad to have some pilot tricks to rely on.  Here in Houston area there are a bunch of pilots that won't fly when cross wind landings are needed.   I was joyed and disappointed at the same time when the Mooney Safety Pilot that did my transition training said that my first 7 landings in the Mooney were better than most people who attend the Mooney Safety weekends.   Especially  now since my landings are so much better than when I got the plane 3 years ago.   As my wife says #tryharder </SoapboxOut>

[Yetti]

2 minutes ago, kortopates said:

So I believe the issue is largely training to learn that by starting  a constant descent from abeam the intended point of landing and unloading the wing that a trimmed aircraft is in no danger of stalling in the pattern. At least not while their maintaining that constant descent to the runway. Things only go wrong when they start pulling the yoke back. Keep the pattern to a standard pattern and there won't be a need.       

This ^^^^^^    It's not about energy management it is about controlled dissipation of energy.  Done properly there should be no need to add energy to the landing process.

[kortopates]

Yesterday we had a another K model join the mix of 5 Mooney's to land with the gear up in the last 7 reporting days. Not a good streak for us Mooney pilots.  

[Yetti]

#nogearups #tryharder

[Mooneymite]

16 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Yesterday we had a another K model join the mix of 5 Mooney's to land with the gear up in the last 7 reporting days. Not a good streak for us Mooney pilots.  

Technology is the answer.  

We should be asking the question:  Why isn't anyone interested in developing that low cost technology?

[Yetti]

36 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

Technology is the answer.  

We should be asking the question:  Why isn't anyone interested in developing that low cost technology?

Gamin sells a LIDAR unit.  They are good for about 130 feet.   The idea was to create the audio call outs like a big plane "100 feet"  "50 feet"   It would be very easy to add the audio warning of "Put the Gear Down dummy" 

Of course I would never do this to a certified plane.

 

[Marauder]

Technology is the answer.  

We should be asking the question:  Why isn't anyone interested in developing that low cost technology?

Although I like the zap Andy in the pants thing, I suspect the reason is the amount of administrative and bureaucratic steps needed to get something like an automatic gear extension system approved is likely not to make it a low cost solution anymore. Someone mentioned the Piper system for automatic deployment. That didn't sell well and was eventually removed.

I agree with you that something needs to be done to improve the situation. Especially for a CB like myself who doesn't want to pay more for insurance because these are self-inflicted gear ups. 

Yesterday I had my flight review and it included a couple of emergency landings, one to an actual touchdown at a short runway. All the while, the friggin gear warning is going off because we were at low throttle. After a while, it just blended into the background noise. Like everyone else, I do the BUMPS to compliment the flow I do for landing prep. I also adopted the "gear down" call out on the frequency with a quick verification of the floor indicator. 

BTW -- I liked the "fluttering leaf" stall demonstration but who the heck has you do S turns on a flight review?!