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Porpoising leads to gear collapse accident

kortopates

By kortopates
in General Mooney Talk

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gsxrpilot Grand Master

gsxrpilot

Posted
Posted

Almost every CFI I know calls it "the flare". The old guy who taught me to fly said not to "flare". But rather to just pull the power off and don't let it land. It requires gently raising the nose as the speed bleeds off. Just do whatever you have to do to hold it off as long as possible without touching the power. It rolls right on every time.

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Mooneymite
Mooneymite

To land a Mooney well, don't beat your Mooney up.  Get a few hours in a taildragger.  

donkaye, MCFI
donkaye, MCFI

What was that Piper pilot thinking!!!!  That is one of the poorest examples of piloting I have ever seen--but it probably was to be expected given the approach.  First off, he came in waaaay, waaay to

Steve W
Steve W

I won't comment on the incident due to the investigation, but I'm fine, the plane is currently not, talking to shops now. If anyone has any suggestions in Oregon of who I should talk to about potentia

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aviatoreb Grand Master

aviatoreb

Posted
Posted
  On 5/20/2018 at 3:56 PM, gsxrpilot said:

Almost every CFI I know calls it "the flare". The old guy who taught me to fly said not to "flare". But rather to just pull the power off and don't let it land. It requires gently raising the nose as the speed bleeds off. Just do whatever you have to do to hold it off as long as possible without touching the power. It rolls right on every time.

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You say tomato, and I say tomaato - Let's call the whole thing off!

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aviatoreb Grand Master

aviatoreb

Posted
Posted
  On 5/20/2018 at 2:59 PM, Hank said:

Isn't this called the "flare"? Or is it colloquially known as "transitioning from approach attitude to landing attitude"? My CFIs and CFIIs have all called it "flaring". Maybe NJ is a special case?

In your final paragraph, you describe rounding out and say it's different from your TFAATLA, which it is. First, the plane rounds out to level flight, then flares to landing attitude. This is how we were all taught as primary students. With experience, these merge together. In my Mooney, it's a deliberate act to hold off just above the runway and continue raising the nose as speed bleeds off (i.e., I gently flare the plane) until the stall horn chirps followed by the tires. 

In the Mooney, the flare is less pronounced than in Cessnas, because the airframe has so much less drag. Pay attention on your next flight, you also flare . . . .

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I prefer to describe this concept in Old English:

at which hour landing the airplane i flare t above the runway

But perhaps it is different in New Jersey English?  I see at Rutger's University there are several translating and interpreting programs but none I can find specific to aeronautical issues.  But this one looks nice.  Perhaps we should all enroll in it before we discuss landing an airplane again?

http://translation.rutgers.edu

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PTK Grand Master

PTK

Posted
Posted

 

  On 5/20/2018 at 2:59 PM, Hank said:

Isn't this called the "flare"? Or is it colloquially known as "transitioning from approach attitude to landing attitude"? My CFIs and CFIIs have all called it "flaring". Maybe NJ is a special case?

In your final paragraph, you describe rounding out and say it's different from your TFAATLA, which it is. First, the plane rounds out to level flight, then flares to landing attitude. This is how we were all taught as primary students. With experience, these merge together. In my Mooney, it's a deliberate act to hold off just above the runway and continue raising the nose as speed bleeds off (i.e., I gently flare the plane) until the stall horn chirps followed by the tires. 

In the Mooney, the flare is less pronounced than in Cessnas, because the airframe has so much less drag. Pay attention on your next flight, you also flare . . . .

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Do you perform a de-orbiting maneuver to go with your flaring! :D

Hank Grand Master

Hank

Posted
Posted
  On 5/20/2018 at 4:03 PM, aviatoreb said:

I prefer to describe this concept in Old English:

at which hour landing the airplane i flare t above the runway

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I can't help but notice that your Saxon is a little rusty. Let me try:

When thou art landing thy airplane, three is the number to which thou shall count. Thou shall not count to four; neither shall thou count to two, unless thou next proceedeth unto three.

Oops, wrong chapter!  :P  Now to try again: 

When ðou art landing ðine æroplane, once ðou art in ground effect ðou shūldst pulleð the yōk lightly, flāring gently to māntān thy heiÞt abovst the runwā while spēd sloweð toward stall. Once ðy æroplane doð stall, ðy whēls shūldst gently touch the earth. Ðou hast landed!

Or in more modern vernacular:

When thou art landing thine airplane, once in ground effect thou shouldst pulleth the yoke lightly, flaring gently to maintain thy height abovst the runway while speed sloweth toward stall. Once thy airplane doth stall, thy wheels shouldst gently touch the earth. Thou hast landed!

:D  :lol:  :D  :P

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aviatoreb Grand Master

aviatoreb

Posted
Posted
  On 5/20/2018 at 5:02 PM, Hank said:

I can't help but notice that your Saxon is a little rusty. Let me try:

When thou art landing thy airplane, three is the number to which thou shall count. Thou shall not count to four; neither shall thou count to two, unless thou next proceedeth unto three.

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That's not Saxon - that's "Monty-Pythonish".

  On 5/20/2018 at 5:02 PM, Hank said:

When ðou art landing ðine æroplane, once ðou art in ground effect ðou shūldst pulleð the yōk lightly, flāring gently to māntān thy heiÞt abovst the runwā while spēd sloweð toward stall. Once ðy æroplane doð stall, ðy whēls shūldst gently touch the earth. Ðou hast landed!

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Ooooh now we are talking!

  On 5/20/2018 at 5:02 PM, Hank said:

When thou art landing thine airplane, once in ground effect thou shouldst pulleth the yoke lightly, flaring gently to maintain thy height abovst the runway while speed sloweth toward stall. Once thy airplane doth stall, thy wheels shouldst gently touch the earth. Thou hast landed!

:D  :lol:  :D  :P

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You fine sir are ready.

 

  On 5/20/2018 at 5:02 PM, Hank said:
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Hank Grand Master

Hank

Posted
Posted

Yes, I must apologize for starting on the page detailing the operation and use of the Holy Hand Grenade. I needed to flip a few pages for How to Land Thy Aeroplane.

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Marauder Grand Master

Marauder

Posted
Posted
  On 5/20/2018 at 5:22 PM, Hank said:
Yes, I must apologize for starting on the page detailing the operation and use of the Holy Hand Grenade. I needed to flip a few pages for How to Land Thy Aeroplane.


I think you missed a couple of “whilst” in your answer.


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Pro
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PTK Grand Master

PTK

Posted
Posted
  On 5/20/2018 at 2:59 PM, Hank said:

Isn't this called the "flare"? 

...Pay attention on your next flight, you also flare . . . .

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No it's not. And no I don’t flare!

May I humbly suggest that if you find yourself needing to flare in order to slow down your airspeed control is slightly off!

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aviatoreb Grand Master

aviatoreb

Posted
Posted
  On 5/20/2018 at 6:54 PM, PTK said:

No it's not. And no I don’t flare!

May I humbly suggest that if you find yourself needing to flare your airspeed control is off. 

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The thing I do, I call it flare.

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Hank Grand Master

Hank

Posted
Posted
  On 5/20/2018 at 6:54 PM, PTK said:

No it's not. And no I don’t flare!

May I humbly suggest that if you find yourself needing to flare in order to slow down your airspeed control is slightly off!

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I generally come over the numbers around 70mph, at idle throttle and descending. When I'm close to the runway, I round out to stop the descent. Stall speed is 64 mph or less.

At this point, I'm still flying, but slowing. To keep flying, I raise the nose a bit, and I slow some more, so I raise the nose a bit more . . . Eventually I reach stall speed for my exact weight and amount of flaps, the horn buzzes and the tires touch. This is called "the flare" by every pilot whom I know. Except by you, but we haven't met, leaving my previous statement true.

Maybe you can come over the numbers in an approach attitude and shift to a landing attitude at flying speed without it affecting your altitude. My Mooney, however, won't do that--if I go to landing attitude even 1mph above stall speed, I begin to gain altitude above the runway, which I don't want to do. So I flare . . .

You may continue to TFAATLA. I will continue to raise the nose of my Mooney above the runway until it stalls and touches down gently. 

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ShuRugal Proficient

ShuRugal

Posted
Posted
  On 5/19/2018 at 3:37 PM, Mooneymite said:

I believe that every Mooney pilot can profit from the skills acquired flying a tail wheel airplane and becoming proficient at full stall landings.  Not full stall landings where you stall and come crashing down the last foot, but full stall landings timed to gently land on all three wheels.  Those are skills that can transfer directly to landing the Mooney.

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And, if you lack access to a real taildragger, I have found that putting in simulated landings in the P51 Mustang for DCS: World always improves my Mooney landings.  Pretty much the same laminar-flow wing on that bird, but much heavier and much more powerful (read: wants to fly much, much faster).  If you can control your energy in that well enough to make 3-point landings to a safe rollout, then the Mooney is a cake walk by comparison.

PTK Grand Master

PTK

Posted
Posted
  On 5/20/2018 at 8:26 PM, Hank said:

I generally come over the numbers around 70mph, at idle throttle and descending. When I'm close to the runway, I round out to stop the descent. Stall speed is 64 mph or less.

At this point, I'm still flying, but slowing. To keep flying, I raise the nose a bit, and I slow some more, so I raise the nose a bit more . . . Eventually I reach stall speed for my exact weight and amount of flaps, the horn buzzes and the tires touch. This is called "the flare" by every pilot whom I know. Except by you, but we haven't met, leaving my previous statement true.

Maybe you can come over the numbers in an approach attitude and shift to a landing attitude at flying speed without it affecting your altitude. My Mooney, however, won't do that--if I go to landing attitude even 1mph above stall speed, I begin to gain altitude above the runway, which I don't want to do. So I flare . . .

You may continue to TFAATLA. I will continue to raise the nose of my Mooney above the runway until it stalls and touches down gently. 

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When wad the last time you practiced slow flight at MCA in landmg configuration? What’s your pitch attitude? Certsinly not as high as when clean. If you lose sight of the runway you’re too fast.

Hank Grand Master

Hank

Posted
Posted
  On 5/20/2018 at 8:58 PM, PTK said:

When wad the last time you practiced slow flight at MCA in landmg configuration? What’s your pitch attitude? Certsinly not as high as when clean. If you lose sight of the runway you’re too fast.

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Who said lose sight of the runway? AoA at 70mph is lower than at 64mph. Raise the nose at 70 to where it should be at 64 leads to ballooning. 

Guest

Guest

Posted
Posted (edited)

I’m so glad I sold my Mooney and bought a Piper, it’s so much easier to land with a 600 pound 400 HP engine and simple oleo struts instead of trailing link land O matic gear like a Mooney.

Clarence

Edited by M20Doc
ShuRugal Proficient

ShuRugal

Posted
Posted
  On 5/20/2018 at 10:32 PM, PTK said:

That's not a flare! That’s transitioning!! Very nicely done! 

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I would have called that a flare.  The definition given by Hank appears to match what we saw in that video.

What is your definition for "flare"?

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Marauder Grand Master

Marauder

Posted
Posted
  On 5/20/2018 at 11:52 PM, ShuRugal said:
I would have called that a flare.  The definition given by Hank appears to match what we saw in that video.

What is your definition for "flare"?

 

According to Peter Garmin, it’s all fake news:

 

http://www.boldmethod.com/learn-to-fly/maneuvers/how-to-time-your-flare-and-touchdown-for-a-perfect-landing/

 

http://www.aeroskytech.com/english/flare/flare.html

 

https://www.skybrary.aero/index.php/Landing_Flare

 

And if one with FLAIR!

 

https://www.aopa.org/news-and-media/all-news/2017/june/flight-training-magazine/landing-with-flair

 

 

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

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Hank Grand Master

Hank

Posted
Posted (edited)
  On 5/20/2018 at 11:52 PM, ShuRugal said:

I would have called that a flare.  The definition given by Hank appears to match what we saw in that video.

What is your definition for "flare"?

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Let's see what Wolfgang Langewiesche had to say:

20180520_194808.thumb.jpg.3e2051cc26a25df1f3018c3a079a87af.jpg

To finish the discussion:

Screenshot_20180520-194634.thumb.jpg.207e8e3ccb16c87127114ef52a41994b.jpg

Edited by Hank
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