jax88 Posted April 7, 2011 Report Share Posted April 7, 2011 Hate to post again, but it appears my original thread has been hijacked for an interesting discussion of IMC flying and accurate flight planning tools. I'm looking for a new, faster aircraft. 252 (or 231 with intercooler & wastegate), Bravo, etc. Must have long range fuel. Purchase will likely be cash, absolute maximum of $200k. I have a '75F in annual at Dugosh that I will consider trading. Show me what you have! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC252MB Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 PM sent. Please let me know if you didn't receive it or you would like more info. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mcstealth Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Saw your plane. Wondered who's it was. Nice. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jax88 Posted April 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 JC252MP : got your message, thanks, will let you know. Mcstealth : thanks - nice field y'all have out there, wish they'd put in a couple more exits from the runway though Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Lotta good deals on Rockets and Bravos. I really would encourage FIKI with where/how far you travel. There's something to be said for dispatch reliability. The only cancellations I had in 20 months / 300 hours of Mooney ownership were due to ice and one time a leaky mag compass. And that's living in Texas. With 1000 mile trips, think how many of your winter flights will have at least some segment covered in ice conditions. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 I have been staunch about the Bravo, but given the new avionics paradigm and if you have the cash (required), why not pick up a 1980 231 wholesale and runout. You could refurb it top to bottom with what you want, update the engine- LB, get an intercooler and consider all goodies. It may take 3-8 mos to market and sell your F for what it certainly is worth. I have seen early 231's first run, needing everything, NDH for as low as $59,000 some places. I have half thought of it myself. Frame- $65,000 (attainable) Engine Reman- $46k-upgrade Avionics -----$50,000 (if you are a total junkie) P&I --------$25,000 (can be done for less, maybe add a new windscreen) First Annual--$12,000 (worst case) TKS (non cert)---$23,000 You are right around $220k. This seems like a lot, but you will have a low time cherry, fresh engine, set up the way you want it aircraft, ready for 700 hours of solid service. Buy a Bravo or 252 for $178k with a cracked crankcase or add an Aspen and Garmin and you'll be in it it for the same. I'm just sayin. This would be a big job to quaterback for six onths, but could also be rewarding. Also, any interest in an M20-Turbo Mod on your F? I am tossing this around for my J. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jax88 Posted April 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 N4352H : you make a compelling argument for doing so. The biggest reason I would shy away from doing as you suggest is depreciation. Why should I eat the depreciation for new avionics, engine, TKS, etc. if there is an excellent aircraft being sold that meets my requirements AND on which the previous owner(s) have already absorbed the depreciation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Gotta tell you Randy, I just looked at your pic's...your F is real nice. You wouldn't consider upgrading the F? I always consider things that are hard to valuate...knowing what you have, the smell of new, not inheriting someone else's risk, headaches associated with buying and selling. Comments made by the nice turbo F fellow in the last thread made sense, particularly since he had experience with a Bravo. His F is real nice too. I always valuate $100 after expenses for time flown. Flying is worth something by itself. Fly an airplane 500-700 hours and to me, this also has intrisic value ($50k-70K of logged flying) that should always be considered after expense. This might be a heck of a candidate for one radio and engine and prop. NDH? Don't know. Could be had for $90k. http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-252TSE/1988-MOONEY-M20K-252TSE/1184567.htm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Quote: N4352H I always valuate $100 after expenses for time flown. Flying is worth something by itself. Fly an airplane 500-700 hours and to me, this also has intrisic value ($50k-70K of logged flying) that should always be considered after expense. This might be a heck of a candidate for one radio and engine and prop. NDH? Don't know. Could be had for $90k. http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20K-252TSE/1988-MOONEY-M20K-252TSE/1184567.htm? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Quote: N4352H I have been staunch about the Bravo, but given the new avionics paradigm and if you have the cash (required), why not pick up a 1980 231 wholesale and runout. You could refurb it top to bottom with what you want, update the engine- LB, get an intercooler and consider all goodies. It may take 3-8 mos to market and sell your F for what it certainly is worth. I have seen early 231's first run, needing everything, NDH for as low as $59,000 some places. I have half thought of it myself. Frame- $65,000 (attainable) Engine Reman- $46k-upgrade Avionics -----$50,000 (if you are a total junkie) P&I --------$25,000 (can be done for less, maybe add a new windscreen) First Annual--$12,000 (worst case) TKS (non cert)---$23,000 You are right around $220k. This seems like a lot, but you will have a low time cherry, fresh engine, set up the way you want it aircraft, ready for 700 hours of solid service. Buy a Bravo or 252 for $178k with a cracked crankcase or add an Aspen and Garmin and you'll be in it it for the same. I'm just sayin. This would be a big job to quaterback for six onths, but could also be rewarding. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Quote: jax88 N4352H : you make a compelling argument for doing so. The biggest reason I would shy away from doing as you suggest is depreciation. Why should I eat the depreciation for new avionics, engine, TKS, etc. if there is an excellent aircraft being sold that meets my requirements AND on which the previous owner(s) have already absorbed the depreciation? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Looks like a nice, first run, clean airframe...ready for the buyer's engine and modest upgrades. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jax88 Posted April 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Speed would be my biggest concern with just upgrading my F with a turbo. What kind of performance could I really expect out of my bird with a turbo strapped to it? When I looked at just putting all this money into upgrading my current aircraft, I figured I'd have a minimum of $125k in it, and that got me thinking I could just invest that in a newer, known performance aircraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Quote: Parker_Woodruff Why not just buy a decked out, FIKI '98 Encore? Steele has a real nice one. It's been sitting at $230k and the ad didn't boast NDH, although undetermined. Randy...how much you willing to spend, or is it more of a value thing (ie- spend what it takes if the pricing makes it a good value)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Quote: N4352H Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jax88 Posted April 8, 2011 Author Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Value, within reason. I'm not made of money, but I believe in approaching this type of purchase with an eye toward getting the best for my money, even if it means adjusting what I thought I would spend when I set out to make the purchase. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Quote: jax88 Speed would be my biggest concern with just upgrading my F with a turbo. What kind of performance could I really expect out of my bird with a turbo strapped to it? When I looked at just putting all this money into upgrading my current aircraft, I figured I'd have a minimum of $125k in it, and that got me thinking I could just invest that in a newer, known performance aircraft. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Quote: Parker_Woodruff Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Not having personal experience. You have to figure a mean cruising speed of 185KTAS. Other than low end 231's (seems to me you aren't interested in those) you are left with the lot, all in the same price range. I mean for simplicity's sake, toss in the Ovations, Eagles, 231's, Rockets and focus the search on a Certified FIKI plane that is not a basket case. You'll be roughly $185k for 185KTAS, so focus on certified FIKI in any model where the plane is absolutely top shape. What do you think Parker? I mean I have flown R's and S's and I am certain theY could drag a little ice to 16k. You would not go wrong with this approach Randy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Quote: N4352H Not having personal experience. You have to figure a mean cruising speed of 185KTAS. Other than low end 231's (seems to me you aren't interested in those) you are left with the lot, all in the same price range. I mean for simplicity's sake, toss in the Ovations, Eagles, 231's, Rockets and focus the search on a Certified FIKI plane that is not a basket case. You'll be roughly $185k for 185KTAS, so focus on certified FIKI in any model where the plane is absolutely top shape. What do you think Parker? I mean I have flown R's and S's and I am certain theY could drag a little ice to 16k. You would not go wrong with this approach Randy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John Pleisse Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Hope you are able to find a Peach Randy...good luck with it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cris Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Randy -As a recent purchaser of an M20S Scramin' Eagle I would encourage you to consider it as an option as others above have mentioned. Here is one in NJ not far from me with all the bells & whistles including FIKI. http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20S-EAGLE/1999-MOONEY-M20S-EAGLE/1184971.htm? I have no knowledge of the A/C personally although I did speak briefly with the broker only to find out that his partner is Lenny Boyd who I knew years ago as a terrific mechanic & businessman. It appears that the seller will take various trades which might help and the only negative might be the high engine time but the price is right & may well be negotiable. Cris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Parker_Woodruff Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Quote: Cris Randy -As a recent purchaser of an M20S Scramin' Eagle I would encourage you to consider it as an option as others above have mentioned. Here is one in NJ not far from me with all the bells & whistles including FIKI. http://www.controller.com/listingsdetail/aircraft-for-sale/MOONEY-M20S-EAGLE/1999-MOONEY-M20S-EAGLE/1184971.htm? I have no knowledge of the A/C personally although I did speak briefly with the broker only to find out that his partner is Lenny Boyd who I knew years ago as a terrific mechanic & businessman. It appears that the seller will take various trades which might help and the only negative might be the high engine time but the price is right & may well be negotiable. Cris Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
carusoam Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 What's the current overhaul cost of an IO-550? (this one has nearly 1,800 hrs on a 2,000 hr TBO) Won't take a plane in trade.....What kind of snowmobile would you include in the trade? I understand boat and travel trailer, but that must be one heck of a snowmobile.... -a- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
N513ZM Posted April 8, 2011 Report Share Posted April 8, 2011 Quote: Parker_Woodruff I did the math awhile back. You are still carrying the same horsepower per pound (or greater) thru 8000' (standard day) with a 310 NA Screaming Eagle fully loaded as you are with 100% power coming out of a Mooney 252. That makes the M20S a perfect airplane for flying in the Southeast (85% of my flying) because I can typically get thru Sea Level and 8000' and find SOME altitude that won't be a constant cruise in ice. However, he needs to check the lb/hp for the given conditions he would be flying in. Go talk to N513ZM about his FIKI Mooney Ovation 2 that he routinely flies in ice. I'll send him a message to come look at this topic. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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