From retro to basic

[NJMac]

We just came into our E model and i want to bring it into this century for nav/com equipment. I dont think ill ever do glass in this plane since my needs will dictate a 6 place plane in 5-8 years.

 

But for the mean time, id like to do some basic mods to make this plane safer and easier to enjoy. I was thinking a 430 or 530 plus an adsb solution and leaving the old steam guages.

 

Looking for feedback from those who have done similarly about what you would do again or do differently. Mind sharing what the investment was?

 

I got a verbal quote for $18k for a 430, adsb, and new com pannel but dont know exactly what it included. Waiting for it to be emailed.

 

I almost think im a perfect candidate to wait for the Dynon approval so i can upgrade everything in one fell swoop but that begs the question, how long?

 

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[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, NJMac said:

 

We just came into our E model and i want to bring it into this century for nav/com equipment. I dont think ill ever do glass in this plane since my needs will dictate a 6 place plane in 5-8 years.

 

But for the mean time, id like to do some basic mods to make this plane safer and easier to enjoy. I was thinking a 430 or 530 plus an adsb solution and leaving the old steam guages.

 

Looking for feedback from those who have done similarly about what you would do again or do differently. Mind sharing what the investment was?

 

I got a verbal quote for $18k for a 430, adsb, and new com pannel but dont know exactly what it included. Waiting for it to be emailed.

 

I almost think im a perfect candidate to wait for the Dynon approval so i can upgrade everything in one fell swoop but that begs the question, how long?

 

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430W.  6500$

GMA340 com 750$

GI106A 1600$

GTX335 w/gps adsb 3K

11,850 in parts, plus wiring, and labor to install the above and re-mount, move the MK12D and remove all the old stuff.

I'd guess 4-5K for that.

 

[MIm20c]

Make sure you get a quote for a waas version of the 430/530. 

[NJMac]

430W.  6500$
GMA340 com 750$
GI106A 1600$
GTX335 w/gps adsb 3K
11,850 in parts, plus wiring, and labor to install the above and re-mount, move the MK12D and remove all the old stuff.
I'd guess 4-5K for that.
 

If a 430w is going to set me back $6500, would the ROI be there at resale if i sprung for a new gtn 650?

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[KLRDMD]

 

2 minutes ago, NJMac said:

If a 430w is going to set me back $6500, would the ROI be there at resale if i sprung for a new gtn 650?

 

I wouldn't consider a 430 today as a new install. 650 if you insist on Garmin or Avidyne 440 if you want a better unit at a lower price.

[jetdriven]

27 minutes ago, NJMac said:

If a 430w is going to set me back $6500, would the ROI be there at resale if i sprung for a new gtn 650?

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Theyre holding their value right now but as soon as Garmin, limits or discountinues support for these units thats going to be a huge hit in value.  We went with a GTN750, mostly becuase the 650 waypoint interface is pretty crappy and the screen is too small.  Its literally a left-right scrolling screen and select the character.

 

Edited November 6, 2017 by jetdriven

[NJMac]

I can totally see that this upgrade process is going to be like giving a mouse a cookie.

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[tigers2007]

My plan to go the cheap way out started at about $9k all-in to almost $25k. It’s addictive...

GTN625 and GTX 335 installed for $14k. http://docs.wixstatic.com/ugd/b17b43_07ea2d3524c14ed282f8cc8bebd77b26.pdf

Remember the old avionics rule - double the cost of the electronics for the total installed price.


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[Jerry 5TJ]

1 hour ago, tigers2007 said:

Remember the old avionics rule - double the cost of the electronics for the total installed price.
 

Then add 50%.  

 

PS -- That panel's layout, colors and vintage avionics was a blast from the past.  My 64 E had a panel very like that when I bought her. Jeez,  30 years ago.  

[NJMac]

Then add 50%.  
 
PS -- That panel's layout, colors and vintage avionics was a blast from the past.  My 64 E had a panel very like that when I bought her. Jeez,  30 years ago.  

And that's what I'm struggling with. The panel works now exactly as it is. Money spent now on the plane is less money that I could otherwise invest in our commercial real estate portfolio and see great returns on in the future.. Do I just do a cheap Stratus adsb upgrade and call it legal?

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[Oldguy]

1 hour ago, NJMac said:

And that's what I'm struggling with. The panel works now exactly as it is. Money spent now on the plane is less money that I could otherwise invest in our commercial real estate portfolio and see great returns on in the future.. Do I just do a cheap Stratus adsb upgrade and call it legal?

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Depends. The question usually asked by now is "What is your mission?".

As for the ROI on avionics, consider it more OPEX than investment. Less painful when you go to sell.

But the amount you choose to spend really depends on what you want to use the plane for.

[Andy95W]

1 hour ago, NJMac said:

And that's what I'm struggling with. The panel works now exactly as it is. Money spent now on the plane is less money that I could otherwise invest in our commercial real estate portfolio and see great returns on in the future.. Do I just do a cheap Stratus adsb upgrade and call it legal?

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I don't think I would do the Stratus, instead maybe look at some of the less expensive UAT solutions to make you ADSB Out legal.

But yes, if this isn't your long term airplane, you may as well take care of the airplane mechanically and let the next owner drop big $$$s into the avionics.

I love how the placard says "Loran-C not approved for IFR" but there's no Loran in sight!

[NJMac]

Depends. The question usually asked by now is "What is your mission?".
As for the ROI on avionics, consider it more OPEX than investment. Less painful when you go to sell.
But the amount you choose to spend really depends on what you want to use the plane for.

I don't specifically have a mission. I got my license and now this plane just to get around to see family. I think the closest thing to a mission would be me saying I want to go fast like Ricky Bobby. Typical flight being 3 hours or so. I convinced my wife that we could recoup our investment on this plane when we upgrade versus throwing money away on the rental for my instrument ticket.

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[Marauder]

I don't specifically have a mission. I got my license and now this plane just to get around to see family. I think the closest thing to a mission would be me saying I want to go fast like Ricky Bobby. Typical flight being 3 hours or so. I convinced my wife that we could recoup our investment on this plane when we upgrade versus throwing money away on the rental for my instrument ticket.

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Since you mentioned that this plane is not intended to be your long term plane, I would heed Andy’s advice and spend your money on making it sound mechanically and get the avionics functional for the IFR training. You don’t need a GPS for your IFR rating. Go simple, get the rating and look for a plane that will meet your long term needs.


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[NJMac]

Since you mentioned that this plane is not intended to be your long term plane, I would heed Andy’s advice and spend your money on making it sound mechanically and get the avionics functional for the IFR training. You don’t need a GPS for your IFR rating. Go simple, get the rating and look for a plane that will meet your long term needs.


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Appreciate your feedback on that.

My wife wants two kids and my two pit bulls are my Sidekicks that go everywhere with me.

So my guess is we'll be into a 6 Place plane as soon as she gets the kids she wants. Wondering if we don't get into a Barron or larger Cessna twin and at that point we might just shop for a pannel that's already been done for us.

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[INA201]

650 minimum if you plan to fly IFR in my opinion. If you are going to fly VFR but get your IFR rating I would wait on the upgrades and go Stratus/IPhone/iPad kinda thing. Just my 2 cents.  

[NJMac]

650 minimum if you plan to fly IFR in my opinion. If you are going to fly VFR but get your IFR rating I would wait on the upgrades and go Stratus/IPhone/iPad kinda thing. Just my 2 cents.  

Mind sharing more about why you think 650 minimum? Just curious why

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[Oldguy]

57 minutes ago, Marauder said:

Since you mentioned that this plane is not intended to be your long term plane, I would heed Andy’s advice and spend your money on making it sound mechanically and get the avionics functional for the IFR training. You don’t need a GPS for your IFR rating. Go simple, get the rating and look for a plane that will meet your long term needs.


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+1 on this.

Set aside some of the funds you would spend on avionics as a "rainy day" fund for the plane. Typically, we see a 10% of the initial purchase price as a reserve for things not caught in a PPI. Sometimes less fits the bill, but sometimes... well, sometimes there is never enough.

I am not sure where you are located (avatar update?) but you may want to get in touch with some of the other MSers in your area for some fun flying. It will also put you in touch with some folks who would likely volunteer to be a safety pilot when you start the IR training.

[Marauder]

Appreciate your feedback on that.

My wife wants two kids and my two pit bulls are my Sidekicks that go everywhere with me.

So my guess is we'll be into a 6 Place plane as soon as she gets the kids she wants. Wondering if we don't get into a Barron or larger Cessna twin and at that point we might just shop for a pannel that's already been done for us.

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I’ve shared the perspective in the past. Apologies to those who have read it before.

I bought my F model 26 years ago and after several years of renting. At the time I had 3 dogs, a baby and little money. I got the plane mechanically sound and worked out all of the avionics bugs. The only thing I installed in the plane for the first seven years was an electronic clock, fuel totalizer, an engine analyzer and finally a NavCom to replace one of the original KX-170Bs.

Quite honestly, taking the dogs was never an option because of the logistics of what to do with them when we got to our destination (ex. taking dogs through Disney World isn’t workable).

When the second kid came along, I installed a full function AP and showed my wife how to use it. Space only became an issue for a few years when they got to their teenage years. During those years, we only needed a larger plane a few times a year and we were able to rent what we needed. It’s not like you are taking these trips every week.

Now that the kids are grown, the F is working out to be the right plane as we head towards retirement. We did take my adult son for a trip out to see his sister and that worked out fine.

I think what most of us are saying is investing in a plane should be thought out carefully. If you are set on a larger plane with this being a step to that, choose wisely. The ROI for most of these upgrades is not a lot. It will help sell the plane faster but you won’t get what you put into it. Think safety first, then need, then wants.


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[INA201]

28 minutes ago, NJMac said:

Mind sharing more about why you think 650 minimum? Just curious why

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The 430 is just  fine too but your install costs will be similar to the 650. Your resale and other costs associated with the 650 should yield a better recouping of your investment.  The 430 will have a faster decline in value especially if they discontinue support.  

[NJMac]

I’ve shared the perspective in the past. Apologies to those who have read it before.

I bought my F model 26 years ago and after several years of renting. At the time I had 3 dogs, a baby and little money. I got the plane mechanically sound and worked out all of the avionics bugs. The only thing I installed in the plane for the first seven years was an electronic clock, fuel totalizer, an engine analyzer and finally a NavCom to replace one of the original KX-170Bs.

Quite honestly, taking the dogs was never an option because of the logistics of what to do with them when we got to our destination (ex. taking dogs through Disney World isn’t workable).

When the second kid came along, I installed a full function AP and showed my wife how to use it. Space only became an issue for a few years when they got to their teenage years. During those years, we only needed a larger plane a few times a year and we were able to rent what we needed. It’s not like you are taking these trips every week.

Now that the kids are grown, the F is working out to be the right plane as we head towards retirement. We did take my adult son for a trip out to see his sister and that worked out fine.

I think what most of us are saying is investing in a plane should be thought out carefully. If you are set on a larger plane with this being a step to that, choose wisely. The ROI for most of these upgrades is not a lot. It will help sell the plane faster but you won’t get what you put into it. Think safety first, then need, then wants.


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Totally forgot one of the main missions. In the next 2 or 3 years my wife and I would like to have a house on the bay and Traverse City, really Suttons Bay. The thought was would fly up with the family and dogs most Fridays and come back on Sunday.

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[Bryan]

I was in your situation 10 months ago.  I bought an F with a similar panel, I ended up selling the plane to buy a K model with a GTN 750 in sound working order to get my instrument rating in instead of upgrading my "shotgun" panel.  If I plan to upgrade to a 6-place (larger) bird, I will have an better chance recouping some of my money out of the K model than the F with a new panel. 

I would not get my instrument rating (today) without doing it with WAAS or at very least IFR rated GPS.  It is 90% of what I use in the IFR real-word - GPS/RNAV.  It seems senseless, now days, to get your instrument in a VOR only equipped aircraft only to upgrade later to RNAV.

My opinion, install a 430 WAAS, GTN 650, or Avidine with an glide-slope indicator if you plan on keeping the plane to get your instrument.  ADSB would be nice but you have 2 years before required.

 

[Andy95W]

21 minutes ago, Bryan said:

I would not get my instrument rating (today) without doing it with WAAS or at very least IFR rated GPS.  It is 90% of what I use in the IFR real-word - GPS/RNAV.  It seems senseless, now days, to get your instrument in a VOR only equipped aircraft only to upgrade later to RNAV.

I disagree with this statement.  Get your instrument rating in whatever airplane works the best for you.

Once you have the instrument rating, it is true an IFR GPS will make the airplane more efficient and easier to use in the system, and open up more instrument approaches to more airports.  But the truth is that 90% of the time navigating by VORs enroute will get you there just fine, after which you'll usually get a visual approach anyway.  And it'll give you some nice avionics to dream about for your next airplane or eventual upgrade instead of just leaping before you look.

[Bryan]

I agree: "whatever works best for you."

I guess I should have phrased my response as: "For me, I want to train for IFR in something that I am going to use most of the time."  I don't understand the need to want to get your insturment in a VOR only equipped airplane to never use that moving forward.  Flying in the soup, or down to minimums, I want my reactions (and training) to reflect what I will be exposed to and most comfortable with.

[BKlott]

You have legacy avionics in your airplane like I have in mine. Two years ago I was trying to figure out what I should do with ADS-B and everything else. I ended up going with the Lynx 9000 NGT and really love the unit.

The  avionics upgrade issue came down to a major bill for my situation. In order for me to upgrade to a big box WAAS GPS/NAV/COM, I would have to replace my existing switch panel as it would not properly interface with the GPS. Same thing with my VOR Indicator. One of them would need to be upgraded / replaced as well.

Additionally, I too have a separate 3LMB like yours. The new switch panel would incorporate that so my separate unit would need to be removed at that point. Also, the new big box unit would eliminate the need for the ADF, it’s Indicator and antennae. So all that and the associated wiring can be removed.

Now the panel covers would have all these holes in them so...time for new metal panel covers?

To further complicate my situation, there would not be sufficient remaining space in my stack for my existing #2 NAV/COM. I would need to replace that perfectly good radio with a slimline type NAV/COM.

Finally, it would be time for a new Weight & Balance.

Figure out what all the above would cost and that is why I went with the Lynx unit providing ADS-B In & Out to use with my iFly 740 for navigation. These upgrade projects can become a classic case of one thing leads to another and another...

Great job convincing your Wife that buying the airplane is a less expensive solution! Not sure you’ll be able to pull that one off again but I am proud of you!!

Edited November 6, 2017 by BKlott