LOVE my J, HATE starting it.

[ArtVandelay]

If you have Slick magnetos, and the engine starts fine cold but not hot, you may have a problem with the ignition coils. It is fairly common for Slick coils to lose continuity on the coil tab, which is where the distributor's carbon brush rides. This can be duplicated with the magneto off the plane. Heating the coil with a toaster oven or heat gun to 250 degrees duplicated the hot soaked engine condition. Testing for continuity through the coil will reveal a bad coil. You clip a multimeter lead to the tab, and the other to the inout, and apply pressure in various directions to the tab. I've probably found over 100 bad coils this way, after pilots report problems starting hot but never when cold. 

Would not this show up during normal operations? When the engine is hot (magnetos don't get much cooling air), an in flight mag check should fail miserably if this was the case.

[mooniac15u]

9 hours ago, Hank said:

I have nothing to contribute to fuel injected hot start procedure since I fly an always-easy-to-start carbed model.

But I find threads like this, recurring periodically, to be in stark contrast to the frequently-offered opinion that the IOs are easy to start whenever a carb pilot mentions that our planes are so simple to crank . . . . .

Now back to your regularly-scheduled programming.  

Starting an IO-360 is like landing a Mooney. It isn't hard if you know what you're doing but it does require using the right technique. 

[Oldguy]

Every time I have had consistent problems starting my J, I have been able to trace it back to a problem needing to be resolved. Bendix dual mag past the recommended time, poor wires, dying starter, or Champion plugs past their "use by" date. My problem this past weekend was it caught so quickly, I could not get the mixture in fast enough. That problem is one I can handle.

If your boost pump is not getting past the red line on your gauge, it needs a look. Check plugs - especially if they are Champion - for excess resistance. What is the time since someone looked at the mag? Should be in the logs. I am making the assumption you have the -A3B6D engine with the dual-head Bendix.

Before you consider changing technique, make sure everything is like it should be. @LANCECASPER  said it right: it needs three things to fire up. You may be doing everything right, but something may not be as it should with the engine.

[jetdriven]

+9 to all that 

[philiplane]

On 9/19/2017 at 12:34 AM, teejayevans said:

Would not this show up during normal operations? When the engine is hot (magnetos don't get much cooling air), an in flight mag check should fail miserably if this was the case.

No, in flight you have cooling air that keeps the magneto core below the problematic temperature. Shut the engine down, and then allow 15 minutes of heat soak, and the problem appears.

[nels]

On 9/18/2017 at 12:47 AM, marky_24 said:

Try this,  

Before shut down bring the rpm's to 1200, tighten the friction lock so you dont bump it getting out.  Next pull mixture to cut off.  Then when you restart,  DONT TOUCH ANYTHING, just crank the engine.  5 blades or less the engine will fire,  briskly move the mixture to rich and bring rpm's to 1000. This has never let me down and i live where it gets to 110+ in the summers. 

 

This is about how  found I could regularly get my hot J going. At least this method doesn't start off flooding the engine. I also found I need to "gently" push the mixture forward. If I move it too quickly the engine stumbles and quits. Then it's flooded.

[AndyFromCB]

And people wonder why piston GA is dying...

[Jerry 5TJ]

8 hours ago, AndyFromCB said:

And people wonder why piston GA is dying...

Yes, it is off-putting to take a new pilot candidate flying and have to "explain" that although hard to start the engine runs just fine in the air: A tough sell.  

I liked each of my Mooney airplanes.  But -- Hot starts in my E were always random events.  I tried many "foolproof " procedures in 850 hours so I must be a fool.

With my C and R models I had more repeatable start success.  However every four to six starts something would be different and failed first tries happened not infrequently.  

In stark contrast -- I've started my P46T aircraft about 350 times.  Every start sequence was a "by the book" procedure, each exactly the same, and 100% resulted in normal starts.  This isn't just a hearsay hangar flying claim either: the engine monitor data document each and every start.   

I have a only few dozen starts in Rotax 912 powered aircraft but all started instantly, like a modern car.  

I do agree that keeping the magnetos fresh, the shower of sparks hot, clean plugs and good ignition harness all help Mooney starts.  And you have to hold your tongue just so.  

 

 

 

 

[Mooneymite]

In 45 years of starting turbine engines, I can only remember 2 aborted starts.

We're  actually operating antiques, but perhaps steam was more reliable?

[Piloto]

My 2000 Ford Explorer with 240,000 miles had never miss a start. And it only cost me $30K. My M20J had only caused me starting problems when the electric fuel pump was weak. After replacing it starts like my Ford.

José

[rbridges]

51 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

In 45 years of starting turbine engines, I can only remember 2 aborted starts.

We're  actually operating antiques, but perhaps steam was more reliable?

think they'd let us take coal and boilers up in the plane with us?

[Mooneymite]

15 minutes ago, rbridges said:

think they'd let us take coal and boilers up in the plane with us?

Just piss off your wife....that'll make steam!  

[Hank]

2 hours ago, rbridges said:

think they'd let us take coal and boilers up in the plane with us?

It's already been done, before our Lycomings were designed . . .

 

[Mooneymite]

That reverse feature would sure be handy for short field ops!

[Hank]

And it's quiet, too, which Europe would love!

Wonder how often "fuel" stops would be  required for a cleaner airframe?

[Mooneymite]

32 minutes ago, Hank said:

And it's quiet, too, which Europe would love!

Wonder how often "fuel" stops would be  required for a cleaner airframe?

If you go nuclear, fuel stops might not ever happen.  Just mandatory potty stops.  

[jonhop]

 

1 hour ago, Mooneymite said:

If you go nuclear, fuel stops might not ever happen.  Just mandatory potty stops.  

Unless you are @Piloto....

[capthaak]

Your answer:
http://skytec.aero/product/category/lycoming/


Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[thomas1142]

Update. First thanks to all the replies, definetly gave me information to work with.

We flew a nice long cross country from home field, Panhadle of Florida, to Norfolk, VA. What a great flight, the Mooney really shined.

On the return trip we stopped after a short 30 minute flight at KMCZ, Martin County airport in NC. It's in the middle of nowhere, has nothing except good fuel price and some of the nicest people we have met. After filling up we had some small talk with the lady at the FBO and proceeded on our way. 

Guess what, I could not start the airplane. Tried some of the techniques that were suggested. No luck and I was beginning to feel real frustrated. Now for the good part. Out no where here come Steve Bennet with his Mooney, stopping in for some gas. We talked and he offered me a new technique to try. With me in the right seat and Steve in the left seat we implemented his technique, the engine caught and took me by surprise that I was not able to catch it in time so it died again. By this time I had wore the battery down so the second try failed. 

I was quit frustrated at that time. The lady at the FBO called all over trying to get us cables for a jump, her sister came out with a power pack that they use on a piper, but it was a 12 volt, the mechanic was called and was going to talk another pilot through the processes of wiring two car batteries together so we can jump the mooney. While all that was happening the battery had a chance to cool down so I figured I'd give it one more try. This time I was better prepared so when it turned over I was able to catch it and keep it running.

made the flight home at 10000 feet above all the yukey stuff, which made me feel lots better. So off the the maintenance shop.

shout out to Steve Bennet and the great folks at KMCZ.

Edited September 25, 2017 by thomas1142

[ArtVandelay]

And the new technique was...? Hopefully it doesn't take 2 people.

[Piloto]

When my electric pump was weak I used the engine pump to prime the engine first and then try to start. The problem with this technique is that it requires a healthy battery or a GPU. After I replaced the electric pump it starts on the first prop turn.

José

[thomas1142]

Procedure according to Steve Bennet.

Mixture and Throttle.     Full forward

Master.      On

Boost pump.      On for 3. Seconds, then off

Mixture.   Full aft, keep power full forward

Starter engage.     As the engine is turning pull throttle aft slowly (engine should catch at the point the throttle is at  half to three quarters aft) as the engine catches move mixture in slowly

Almost like a flooded start with the exception of moving the throttle while cranking. 

I'm going to fly around the pattern for an hour or so for practice, stop by the fuel pump and try this method again.

 

[ArtVandelay]

The reason to pull the throttle is to get the correct air,fuel mixture I believe. I've heard of people just skipping the hot start and going to the flooded start, seems like it lacks finesse, but desperate times...

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, thomas1142 said:

Almost like a flooded start with the exception of moving the throttle while cranking.

I like doing that for flooded starts anyway.  I think the idea is with full throttle, all that air flowing in means the ideal fuel mixture exists for only a brief time.  After clearing out most of the fuel, pulling the throttle back means less airflow and more time near the ideal fuel mixture.  I suppose you could do the entire hot start at 1/4 throttle, but you'd probably be cranking for a long time first.

It also means less chance of RPM's getting out of control and blowing away the guy behind you if your hands aren't fast enough.

Edited September 26, 2017 by jaylw314

[Brian_tii]

Could also consider leaving the oil door open to let more hot air out of the top of the cowling. I do that on our Cirrus and it does help to keep the fuel injection from getting so heat soaked. Not perfect, but helps for the quick turnarounds.