Advice requested for flying near Phoenix

[helitim]

Flight,

I have a conference to attend near the Phoenix SkyHarbor Airport the second week of September.  My initial thought is to fly into Goodyear (KGYR) and get a rental or Uber to the Sheraton Grand Phoenix.  Not knowing the area, I would appreciate any suggestions as to whether there may be a better plan of action?  Would flying directly into KPHX be an option or is the airport not really hospitable to small GA fliers? Scottsdale maybe?  

Thank you, Tim

[gsxrpilot]

The couple of times I've flown to Phoenix, I've got to Deer Vallley. It's a ways north, but is friendlier/cheaper than Scottsdale for sure.

[Skates97]

I always fly into Chandler KCHD just because it is about 10 minutes from my parents house. If you buy fuel (not terribly expensive) they wave their overnight parking fee.

[N201MKTurbo]

Come to chandler and say hi! 

It is closer to your hotel than DVT to SDL or goodyear. 

Not sure about getting a car there.

[neilpilot]

9 hours ago, gsxrpilot said:

The couple of times I've flown to Phoenix, I've got to Deer Vallley. It's a ways north, but is friendlier/cheaper than Scottsdale for sure.

Hi Paul,

I actually found KSDL friendly and not too expensive when I was there last Thanksgiving.

I flew into KSDL a couple of times, since Scottsdale is only a couple miles from where our daughter lives.  I initially considered a "cheaper" airport, but discovered their self-service fuel option.  You can use self-serve fuel near Ross, which when I was there was at least $3/gal less than Ross' full service rate.  After fueling, taxi to Ross, and when you show them the SS receipt Ross will waive their ramp fee.  Scottsdale SS ended up being much cheaper than the alternative airports, and way more convenient for me.  Other than being parked a short walk behind the big iron, folks at Ross treated us very well.

I just checked, and Ross full serve on Airnav is $8.64, but their SS is $5.24.

[carqwik]

I would not recommend going into Sky Harbor...unless you're a turbine driver.  All the other airports are probably about the same distance (more or less) from downtown Phoenix.  I'd suggest coming IFR if you're not familiar with the area.  If you can't do IFR, then GYR is a logical choice to avoid some of the airspace issues....

[ArtVandelay]

1 hour ago, neilpilot said:

Hi Paul,

I actually found KSDL friendly and not too expensive when I was there last Thanksgiving.

I flew into KSDL a couple of times, since Scottsdale is only a couple miles from where our daughter lives.  I initially considered a "cheaper" airport, but discovered their self-service fuel option.  You can use self-serve fuel near Ross, which when I was there was at least $3/gal less than Ross' full service rate.  After fueling, taxi to Ross, and when you show them the SS receipt Ross will waive their ramp fee.  Scottsdale SS ended up being much cheaper than the alternative airports, and way more convenient for me.  Other than being parked a short walk behind the big iron, folks at Ross treated us very well.

I just checked, and Ross full serve on Airnav is $8.64, but their SS is $5.24.

Where is the Ross SS pumps? I can't find it with my usual method of checking satellite pictures.

[neilpilot]

32 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Where is the Ross SS pumps? I can't find it with my usual method of checking satellite pictures.

SS pump is on the NW side of the runway, same side as Ross.  I know it's the second turnoff SW of Ross.  When I first arrived, I simply asked ground for progressive.   It looks like a mushroom, and IIRC it's straight ahead if you depart on taxiway B10.

[EricJ]

23 minutes ago, teejayevans said:

Where is the Ross SS pumps? I can't find it with my usual method of checking satellite pictures.

This thing:

https://www.google.com/maps/place/Dignity+Statue/@33.6183731,-111.9189456,76m/data=!3m1!1e3!4m5!3m4!1s0x8781373396695eb9:0xeb8e709b447d7761!8m2!3d43.786875!4d-99.338286

BTW, PHX Sky Harbor is not a place for GA traffic.   There's no FBO, airline traffic is constant, etc.   That said, if you need to fly over PHX the bravo transition is really easy and the controllers usually very accommodating.

Also, the Scottsdale, SDL, terminal is being demolished and replaced, so double check that your favorite car rental company office still exists.   Otherwise, there's transient parking in front of where the terminal was and I think you can still get in and out of the man gate (at least I did a while back right after the terminal closed).   If you go to Ross, or Signature if you're a mega-baller, there's still easy access through those for the price.

Elsewise all of the local GA airports are quite good.   Chandler, CHD, will probably be the most convenient for you but the car rental situation there is questionable, as it is everywhere except Scottsdale when the terminal is open, which it isn't.  

[Bolter]

I have seen GA flying into SkyHarbor, though I have always opted for CHD or IWA for my destinations were not near KPHX.

There are 2 FBO's at PHX.  Cutter and Swift.  I have been well treated at a Cutter location at another airport, FWIW.  Both will take you and your Mooney.  Call and find out if their fees are worth the convenience for you.  

You are used to the Bay Area, I do not think you will find Phoenix technically challenging other than being an airspace that you have not memorized like your home turf.  File IFR or at least have flight following, and you will be fine.  I have been regularly cleared through Class Bravo or given clear vectors that made it easy to work with them and stay clear

-dan

[ArtVandelay]

Thanks, I would never have figured that to be the fuel pump.

[Mooneymite]

The Phoenix area has a LOT of flight training going on in certain quadrants.  Some of the student transmissions are (to me) completely unintelligible.  Keep your eyes out of the cockpit as much as possible.

[EricJ]

28 minutes ago, Mooneymite said:

The Phoenix area has a LOT of flight training going on in certain quadrants.  Some of the student transmissions are (to me) completely unintelligible.  Keep your eyes out of the cockpit as much as possible.

Truth, that.  This is definitely a place where ADS-B-in with a traffic display on a tablet (or somewhere) helps a ton.    There are several very large flight schools here that serve global airlines, so there are a lot of student accents and non-perfect English on the radio.   Scottsdale, Chandler, and Falcon also have helicopter schools with a lot of traffic, which makes it even more entertaining.    You really have to keep on your toes around here, but I find it makes it more fun when it's not abjectively terrifying.

[N201MKTurbo]

I used to go to Sky Harbor all the time, but those days are over. I don't think I've landed there in over ten years. The airport management is actively hostile to GA. There used to be a city GA terminal (The Executive Terminal) but the big FBOs had it shut down. I used to fly over there and take the crew bus to the terminals when I was flying the airlines. It was cheaper to park your plane than your car. Those days are over...

[Bryan]

1 hour ago, teejayevans said:

Thanks, I would never have figured that to be the fuel pump.

Me either, but click on the "3D" button on the google map and you can see the sneaky pump.

I work for Phoenix Children's just north of SkyHarbor but work remotely from my home in Arkansas.  As a new IFR pilot, one of my goals this year is to fly from AR -> AZ in my 231, but I am waiting for the cooler weather out in PHX.  Following this thread on where to fly into.  I have close friends that live in Scottsdale and in Arcadia so looking for something north, north-east of SkyHarbor that is Mooney friendly.  Probably Deer Valley or Scottsdale for me.

[amillet]

I have flown into Chandler, Scottsdale, Mesa Falcon & Phoenix (Mesa) Gateway.  I prefer Falcon.  FBO has rental cars.  An historical tidbit:. My mother worked on airplanes (grease monkey) at Falcon when it was a WW2 training facility for British pilots.  I just bought her a  Rosie the Riveter T -shirt at Oshkosh.  She just had her 90th birthday.

 

[ragedracer1977]

13 hours ago, neilpilot said:

Hi Paul,

I actually found KSDL friendly and not too expensive when I was there last Thanksgiving.

I flew into KSDL a couple of times, since Scottsdale is only a couple miles from where our daughter lives.  I initially considered a "cheaper" airport, but discovered their self-service fuel option.  You can use self-serve fuel near Ross, which when I was there was at least $3/gal less than Ross' full service rate.  After fueling, taxi to Ross, and when you show them the SS receipt Ross will waive their ramp fee.  Scottsdale SS ended up being much cheaper than the alternative airports, and way more convenient for me.  Other than being parked a short walk behind the big iron, folks at Ross treated us very well.

I just checked, and Ross full serve on Airnav is $8.64, but their SS is $5.24.

SS at DVT is currently $4.49, just fyi.  I have no idea what Cutter charges for tiedowns, but they most likely waive it with a fuel purchase.  Their FS is only $5.64 right now... And, as others have mentioned, there is no terminal at SDL anymore - at least for a while.  It's all been torn down.  

[neilpilot]

9 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

SS at DVT is currently $4.49, just fyi.  I have no idea what Cutter charges for tiedowns, but they most likely waive it with a fuel purchase.  Their FS is only $5.64 right now... And, as others have mentioned, there is no terminal at SDL anymore - at least for a while.  It's all been torn down.  

I wasn't suggesting SDL was better than DVT, even though it is for me. My post was to inform Paul that DVT might not necessarily always be "friendlier/cheaper" than SDL by such a wide margin.

 There are still a few options for car rentals available at SDL without the terminal.  If I had landed at DVT it would have placed me 25-30 minutes away from where I wanted to be.  If I was going back today, I'd be happy to pay for the gas at SDL in exchange for the convenient location since my daughter lives very close.  Also, I listened to some of the traffic going in/out of DVT as I over flew on my way back from SLC and I was happy I decided not to base there during my visit.  ATC almost needed an interpreter to work some of the pilots.  In one case, after PHX approach asked for a repeat of a request for VFR advisories twice, the controller gave up trying to understand what was being requested and refused flight following.

[gsxrpilot]

@neilpilot thanks, good to know. I didn't know about their SS option.

Back in the day, when I was relatively fresh out of college and a poor school teacher, I lived across the street from the Scottsdale airport. I loved to sit and watch planes from my back porch. And never dreamed I'd ever be a pilot, much less own an airplane. I should fly my 252 into Scottsdale sometime just for old times sake.

[EricJ]

3 hours ago, neilpilot said:

 There are still a few options for car rentals available at SDL without the terminal.  If I had landed at DVT it would have placed me 25-30 minutes away from where I wanted to be.  If I was going back today, I'd be happy to pay for the gas at SDL in exchange for the convenient location since my daughter lives very close.  Also, I listened to some of the traffic going in/out of DVT as I over flew on my way back from SLC and I was happy I decided not to base there during my visit.  ATC almost needed an interpreter to work some of the pilots.  In one case, after PHX approach asked for a repeat of a request for VFR advisories twice, the controller gave up trying to understand what was being requested and refused flight following.

Those guys come to Scottsdale for practice, shooting approaches, and just transitioning the airspace all the time.   They're on the radio every day here, too. 

Anyone who flies here frequently or just wants to know what to look out for regarding the training traffic, the Arizona Flight Training Workgroup maintains a very helpful website for just that purpose at http://aftw.org/.     If you use the Stanfield VOR for navigation or just go through that area, it is important to know about "the stack" that is used there.   Basically, the stream of traffic shooting approaches at Casa Grande gets so thick that there's a traffic stacking procedure that is used.   As far as I know, this is the only place that it is published, since it is not a formal procedure, but is well known among the local schools (because aftw):  http://aftw.org/wp/wp-content/uploads/2016/06/Stanfield-VOR-procedures.pdf

In my experience one area that needs high diligence is NW of Deer Valley (DVT), which is where the Trans Pacific, Westwind, and other practice areas are.   There have been mid-air collisions out there, and that's where I had my head-on near miss.

If you watch the general area with something like flighradar24.com or a similar service, you can see a lot of GA training traffic, and you'll see many of the same tail numbers in the air all day every day (well, you know what I mean).   Generally tail numbers in the 4400x range are Oxford, and anything that is xxxPA is Trans Pacific.   They're all over the valley all the time.    Except last Tuesday when the place was totally devoid of any GA traffic.   Given how thick it usually is around here, that was very, very strange. 

If I'm making it sound like it's tricky to get around here, it's not, it's quite easy.   But it's not a good idea to be complacent about traffic awareness around here.

[EricJ]

9 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

@neilpilot thanks, good to know. I didn't know about their SS option.

Back in the day, when I was relatively fresh out of college and a poor school teacher, I lived across the street from the Scottsdale airport. I loved to sit and watch planes from my back porch. And never dreamed I'd ever be a pilot, much less own an airplane. I should fly my 252 into Scottsdale sometime just for old times sake.

If you do, holler, we can go drink beer.   Unless you need to fly back or something.  

[ragedracer1977]

6 hours ago, neilpilot said:

I wasn't suggesting SDL was better than DVT, even though it is for me. My post was to inform Paul that DVT might not necessarily always be "friendlier/cheaper" than SDL by such a wide margin.

 There are still a few options for car rentals available at SDL without the terminal.  If I had landed at DVT it would have placed me 25-30 minutes away from where I wanted to be.  If I was going back today, I'd be happy to pay for the gas at SDL in exchange for the convenient location since my daughter lives very close.  Also, I listened to some of the traffic going in/out of DVT as I over flew on my way back from SLC and I was happy I decided not to base there during my visit.  ATC almost needed an interpreter to work some of the pilots.  In one case, after PHX approach asked for a repeat of a request for VFR advisories twice, the controller gave up trying to understand what was being requested and refused flight following.

IMO, DVT will always be considerably cheaper than SDL.  I did all of my flight training at SDL, so I feel pretty confident in talking about it.  However, there's nothing inherently wrong with SDL.  It's a nice field with a couple great FBO's.  I wasn't trying to steer him away.  

That said, SDL is actually considerably busier than DVT in terms of wait times.  During training, I waited 20+ minutes for departure more times than I can count.  With only one runway and lots of corporate jet traffic, the delays are sometimes unreal.   Now that I'm based at DVT, I've never waited more than 5 minutes for a departure and 90% of the time, I wait less than 2 minutes after calling ready to go.  DVT uses intersection departures on 7R/25L and has huge run up areas on 7L/25R to keep traffic moving.  They are VERY efficient.  

Yes, there are a lot of foreign students that are hard to understand, and if you're not used to it, I can definitely see how it could be intimidating.  Having trained in the area, I'm just used to it.  They were always in and out of SDL, DVT, and FFZ - and so was I.  At this point, I can understand everything they say.  

And, like EricJ said, use caution if you're NE or NW of DVT.  I always monitor 122.75 when in those areas (that's the practice area frequency) until I'm really close (under 10 miles so I know I'm on their radar) to SDL or DVT class D.  I've been in the NW practice area with 10 other aircraft.  Helicopters and planes.  It can get hairy.  

Edited August 26, 2017 by ragedracer1977

[glenn reynolds]

I have flown in to phx multiple times and consider it a great airport to fly into. I rank it as my favorite big city airport. You absolutely want flight following or ifr so that approach knows you are coming. Study the landmarks but don't hesitate to state "unfamiliar" and ask for vectors. It is very likely you will get your own controller so they can focus on your route. The airport has a smaller runway specifically for general aviation traffic. I have found the controllers to be excellent.  There are two fbo on the field. I have used both and they have been very good. Cutter makes a point of pricing a gas cheaper to bring in ga traffic and I use them. Call ahead and tell them what you need and they will be ready. I do make sure to have my Bruce cover as it gets too hot in phx. Matts big breakfast in downtown is the best in the country. Enjoy. 

[carqwik]

EricJ - Thanks for that post on the Stanfield VOR procedures...I knew about the "stack" but didn't realize there was a published document!  Now I have to rethink flight routing to AVQ/RYN on breakfast runs as I typically flight right near that area! 

[N201MKTurbo]

52 minutes ago, carqwik said:

EricJ - Thanks for that post on the Stanfield VOR procedures...I knew about the "stack" but didn't realize there was a published document!  Now I have to rethink flight routing to AVQ/RYN on breakfast runs as I typically flight right near that area! 

Don't fear the stack. Just make sure you are on the stack frequency and figure out what is going on. Don't be one of those people who just blows through the area unannounced. The stack uses KCGZ Unicom 122.7

If you are above 4500 between the VOR and the airport you should be OK. Just watch out for airplanes on the missed going back to the stack. They will be a few miles south of the airport climbing westbound to the top of the stack.

Call and ask for the top of the stack and just cross above that and announce what you are doing.