Hot start procedure for TSIO-360

[231MJ]

Need help with best procedure to hot start my K.  The engine model is a TSIO-360MB (not sure the actual model makes a difference).  The advice I have gotten in the past is "give it lots of fuel", "use the boost pump to get the injector lines filled", "push the throttle in as the prop rotates", "keep putting the fuel to it".  This has not worked for me and I end up running the risk of draining the battery so most times I plan on a 2-3 hour cool down and then use normal start procedures.  Problem is I don't always have 2-3 hours to let the engine cool.  

My engine starts easy when cool.  3-4 seconds of primer, 1/4" of throttle and it usually starts after 2-3 blade go by.  I do need to add a little primer a few times after engine start until the engine runs smoothly.

So what's the sure-fire hot start procedure?

Thanks

[FBCK]

I have a TSIO-360LB, but when hot, I pull the mixture to shut off, and put the throttle half way in. No prime or pump. Engage the starter and the engine will fire but then you have to be very fast to push the mixture in and pull the throttle back to a reasonable level and at the same time start priming the engine.  It will spit and sputter a bit, but once the vapor lock is gone, maybe 10 second it will smooth out, work 100% of the time for me.

[milotron]

I have the same model (MB4).  I can typically just crank without any priming or special procedures and it starts right up.   If REALLY hot, 4-5 seconds of prime like a cold start and still starts.

(knock on wood) I have never had a hot start issue with my K. Not like the IO-360 in the Diamond, cripes that one was awful to start hot or warm or not cold.

[peevee]

9 minutes ago, milotron said:

I have the same model (MB4).  I can typically just crank without any priming or special procedures and it starts right up.   If REALLY hot, 4-5 seconds of prime like a cold start and still starts.

(knock on wood) I have never had a hot start issue with my K. Not like the IO-360 in the Diamond, cripes that one was awful to start hot or warm or not cold.

That's what I did with our -lb and I never had an issue.

[kortopates]

Get yourself a copy of CMI Operations Manual for your TSIO-360. A digital copy is free as an engine owner from CMI/TCM online. After you register your engine serial number you get all the documentation for free.

In the operations manual is their recommended hot start procedure which has more detail than the Mooney POH's. What's missing is the following method to replace the heat soaked fuel in the lines with fresh cool fuel from the tanks by: 1) close throttle and mixture to idle cutoff, then run low boost pump for 1/2 minute (preferable) or high boost pump for 10-15 sec. Deakin has written this up in an Avweb article as well. years ago. Now with the fuel lines flushed of the hot fuel, follow the Hot Start in Mooney POH. But as others have mentioned, if you didn't just shut down a few minutes ago, you may still need a couple seconds of prime (about 3 sec is what I use) and then slowly push the throttle forward while cranking till the engine catches (if it doesn't right away)  being sure to pull it back once it does before RPM spins up above idle.

[KLRDMD]

2 hours ago, aochabauer said:

Need help with best procedure to hot start my K.  The engine model is a TSIO-360MB (not sure the actual model makes a difference).  The advice I have gotten in the past is "give it lots of fuel", "use the boost pump to get the injector lines filled", "push the throttle in as the prop rotates", "keep putting the fuel to it".  This has not worked for me and I end up running the risk of draining the battery so most times I plan on a 2-3 hour cool down and then use normal start procedures.  Problem is I don't always have 2-3 hours to let the engine cool.  

I've run five different TSIO-360 series engines and each one required a slightly different procedure. Generally what Paul said is recommended however I find the particular engine in my 231 starts the same hot or cold. Mixture rich, throttle set for about 1,200 RPM, PRIME for 5-8 seconds depending on the OAT and engage the starter. Be ready to hit the PRIMER for a shot or two of fuel as needed. The only difference between hot and cold is that cold it fires right up and hot it takes a few blades (4-5) before it starts up.

[M20F]

All of the above is the perfect way but with a 1% chance of failure.  

A 100% guarantee is flood it, full throttle, mixture full lean, crank, and when it fires push the mixture in/pull throttle back. 

Would certainly follow advice in posts above but if it isn't working just flood start it as opposed to killing the battery. 

[Guest]

Fuel, air, sparks and a good battery. A properly set up fuel system with clean nozzles, clean healthy spark plugs and well maintained magnetos, a healthy battery and starter are all important first steps.

Clarence

[jlunseth]

The TSIO360 is an easy starting engine.  I am going to tell you how to start it under all conditions, even down to 20F if you have to (that's not easy on the starter, so heating would be preferred).  What it needs is fuel.  A typical "difficult start" scenario is the pilot gives it a few seconds of prime, mixture and prop full in and throttle about half way out.  Hit the starter, it fires and rolls over a few times, then dies.  You can do that many times before it will start and keep running, or the batteries fail.  That's because the fuel lines are empty or partly empty, the prime that you put in allows the engine to run, but not long enough for the mechanical pump to fill the lines, so it quits again.

The first thing you need to do is use the high boost to fill the lines.  Pull the throttle and mixture full out.  Run the high boost until the fuel pressure stabilizes.  This tells you that the lines are full or as full as you are going to get them.  Then you are ready for step two.

It is worth stopping for a moment and talking about the Deakin article that was referred to earlier.  Deakin says that the Continentals have a return line.  If you pull the idle mixture out, fuel flow to the induction system is shut off, so running the boost pump fills the lines and any excess goes back into the tanks via the return line.  Deakin recommends running the high boost for a full minute in a hot start situation, the purpose of which is to use cool fuel to cool the fuel system so bubbles don't form and the system does not vapor lock.  He might be right for some Continentals, but he is wrong when it comes to the TSIO360.  I don't know the details of the fuel system, but I can tell you that running the high boost for a period longer than it takes to stabilize the fuel pressure is the one sure way to get the engine to backfire.  So don't do that.  If you do not have a good pressure gauge (I have a JPI930) then run the high boost for ten to fifteen seconds, but no more.  All you want to do is fill the lines and that will do it.

Now, make the mixture full rich and the manifold pressure full in.  Run the primer for whatever period is recommended in your POH.  It varies depending on OAT.  3-4 seconds, however, is not enough.  Make it six seconds under normal conditions and up to twenty in cold conditions.

Now you have the fuel lines full and the cylinders are primed.  You are ready to start.  Pull the manifold pressure back to about half.  Leaving the safety cage on the high boost, put your finger on the top of the boost switch, don't push it yet, just put your finger there.  Now hit the starter, the engine will fire.  When/if you hear it begin to die, push the top of the boost switch.  If you leave the cage on the switch does not go into the ON detent position, it acts like an instant off switch - let go and the pump stops instantly.  So when you hear the engine start to die push the top of the switch and hold it for a few seconds while the engine spins up.  Then let go.  If you let go too early and it starts to die just hit the top of the high boost again until it is spinning nicely.  This works as long as the prop is still spinning, even if the engine seems to have died completely.  It will fire back up and stay running as long as you supply it with fuel.

No matter how hard you work to fill the lines before starting, the fuel seems to seep back down and what you are doing with the high boost is supplementing the fuel flow to the engine until the mechanical pump has full prime and the lines are completely full.

This works all the time, at all altitudes and under all start conditions, hot, cold down to about 20F although you might have to try a few times, I have done it at sea level and at Leadville (approx. 10,000 ft.).

Sounds complicated but works every time.  

I got to this after trying several things including finding the Deakin article and trying that method, which worked except for the backfire when I tried the "full minute cool".  And on John Deakin himself, I took the seminar, have met him and he is a very smart man when it comes to planes and engines.  His method may work on big bore Conti's I don't know, I do know that ovber fifteen seconds of high boost produces a backfire, the engine will start fine, but the backfire part is not so good.

[gsxrpilot]

I have the same MB engine. My hot start and cold start procedures are almost exactly the same. The only difference being the amount of prime I use. With the hot start I'll hold the prime down until you hear the pitch change in the pump. It's just a few seconds longer than the three or four second prime I usually use for a cold start. When the engine's hot and I hold the prime, I can hear the sound change after a few seconds. Then release and start. It will always fire on the 3rd or 4th blade, and I might need to give it another shot of prime to keep it running. That's it. Easy.

[231MJ]

Thanks, everyone.  I have not followed the procedures laid out by jlunseth but I'm going to try it this weekend.  Mike, your flood the engine and then start just frightens me a little too much although it makes some sense.   M20Doc - really good points and I just installed a rebuilt starter and new Concorde battery and that's one reason I'm feeling bold enough to try something new.   Part of my issue has been I have a 12V system (the MB engine was a 262 mod performed by previous owner) and running down the battery has always been a big concern.  My previous battery was a Gill and it just seemed too weak to mess with.  The Concorde RG-35AXC I instlled has 440 CCA, which I believe is much more than the acid filled Gill (but I can't find the CCA for the acid battery on the Gill website).

Thanks, again.  PIREP on the way!

[Guest]

You should have no troubles with the Concorde battery cranking a 360, the same battery spins my 720 with no real effort.

Clarence

[carusoam]

The intentional flood, then start is classic.

When you are not sure if there is too much, or too little fuel in the system....

you know exactly where you are once you have intentionally flooded it.  Then follow the flooded start sequence.

Got it?

Best regards,

-a-

 

[M20F]

On 4/12/2017 at 8:36 PM, M20Doc said:

Fuel, air, sparks and a good battery. A properly set up fuel system with clean nozzles, clean healthy spark plugs and well maintained magnetos, a healthy battery and starter are all important first steps.

Clarence

This is a good thing to consider as well.  Sometimes it is not technique but another issue causing starting issues.  I

[231MJ]

PIREP

Went for a flight today, visited a few airports where I did stop-n-gos to get everything hot.  Then I went to a third airport for fuel (paid $3.99/gal  which is good for us in Cal.), filled to 108 gallons for an up-coming trip.  Went to the toilet and thought about the hot start.  

I decided to use jlunseth's recommendations as follows:

MP - closed

Mixture - idle cut-off

Prop - high

High bost pump - 15 seconds

MP - full

Mixture - rich

Primer - 4 seconds

MP - 1/2

Starter engaged

3-4 blades and the engine fired a few times but did not start.  Kept the starter engaged but firing had stopped.  A little hit of the primer did nothing.  Crap.  It fired, which is more than it did using my old technique so something must have been right, but it did not start.  I decided to go back to the the beginning but this time longer high boost time pump (I was counting 1-1,000; 2-1,000; etc. but I was counting fast before so may not have gone the full 15 seconds) and longer primer, all the rest was the same.  And it started!  What a relief!

Thanks everyone for explaining the proper procedure.  Really helpful.  

Yes, carusoam, now I get it!

[jlunseth]

Ta da.

The short answer is it needs fuel.  The long answer is how to give it fuel in time to keep it running until the mechanical pump can do its job.  The hot start procedure and the high altitude procedure are exactly the same.  The truly cold start procedure requires more prime.  Look in your POH for that.  The prime is what initially starts the engine and let's it run for a few revolutions until you can help it with the high boost pump.  I would use a little more prime than you are using for a normal start, I do a six count.  You will need to experiment a little to figure out what times work best for your engine.

I am told that the prime puts fuel "directly into the cylinders."  How it does that, I don't know.  I would have though it is simply put in through the injectors, but that is not "directly into the cylinders" even if the idle cutoff and throttle are open.  The injectors put fuel into the induction manifold just before the intake port.  At any rate, the separate use of prime once the lines are filled is important.  

I can't remember the last time I had to hit the starter more than once, maybe four or five years ago.  That would be three or four hundred starts.

Edited April 16, 2017 by jlunseth

[Nopo]

Hot start: .05 to 1 sec prime. That's it. Cold start: depends on temps. If cold outside:10-40 F, then prime go 10 sec or more. Let evaporate for 20-30 sec, then, crank. No better way. Trust me

[Rszent]

This works all the time but be quick on the throttle and have a finger on the boost pump....

Everything full forward...Just a shot of boost pump 1/2 second...Crank engine,, will fire imediately bring throttle back to idle and may have to hit boost pump for a second or two to keep engine from quitting ,,then good to go... works all the time on hot starts on my 550 and on 360 s

[FlyWalt]

There are several methods that work. I, however, found this video done by the Mooney Guru himself, Don Maxwell. It has always worked well for me.

 

[carusoam]

10 minutes with DMax....

Can't get any better than that! 

Thanks for sharing the video, FWalt.

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

But lets not confuse a Lycoming Hot start procedure with a Continental hot start; a lot of similarities but very different systems. Frankly the Continental is much easier.

[peevee]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

But lets not confuse a Lycoming Hot start procedure with a Continental hot start; a lot of similarities but very different systems. Frankly the Continental is much easier.

In which way are they different?

[Guest]

7 hours ago, FlyWalt said:

There are several methods that work. I, however, found this video done by the Mooney Guru himself, Don Maxwell. It has always worked well for me.

 

While Don is able to start it easily, 30 seconds between stops and starts is hardly a real hot start. 

Clarence

[gsxrpilot]

I've had quite a bit of experience hot starting my 252. We've done a number of trips that required fuel stops. My hot start procedure is exactly the same as my cold start procedure with the exception of an additional 4 or 5 seconds of prime before cranking. It's never failed to start.

[carusoam]

Difference....

Continental has the ability, it is plumbed, to send fuel back to the tank.

For my IO550...  full throttle (allows max fuel flow), mixture aft to cut off, fuel pump on...

warm fuel and vapor are sent back to the tank they came from.  Cool fuel from the tank is delivered forward for starting.

Nifty system.  Some continental systems only send fuel back to one tank.

Best regards,

-a-