Garmin G5 and vacuum system removal question

[NotarPilot]

I recently installed my Garmin G5 but the installer said he cannot remove the vacuum system because it's part of the MEL. I checked and sure enough it's the last thing on the list and it's needed for IFR flight. My vacuum doesn't do anything now since it only ran the AI, everything else is electric. I also want to remove the suction gauge.

So my question is, what's the best path to legally remove the vacuum system and suction gauge? I'm thinking of asking the FSDO for a field approval to remove them.  Question is, how would that work? Would they issue an amendment or supplement to the Flight Manual to replace that page in the Limitations? Anyone else think about this or do this or am I too far in the weeds on this? Another person suggested just removing it but I prefer to do it properly and on the up and up.

[MB65E]

I'm all electric in my 65e, and compliant with the TCDS. I would NOT talk to the FSDO. It's legal with the paperwork on the table already. 

Also, I can't wait for my RC Allen gyro to go TU!! A G5 is on the short list of things I want to do in 2017.

shoot me a PM if you need anything. 

-Matt

 

[NotarPilot]

Thanks, I wasn't aware of that more on M20 TC. Sounds like a simple log entry to me, right?

Thanks Matt, calling the FSDO was going to be my last option. I wanted to see what the community had to say and this is really good news. 

Oh and I think you'll really like the G5. I think I'll wait till I have around 20-30 hours of solid and reliable use on it before I completely remove the vacuum system and put the parts up for sale.  I read a thread on BT where a guy had an issue with his G5 doing some funky stuff that made me question its reliability. I want to wait and see for myself.

Edited January 1, 2017 by NotarPilot
Added last paragraph

[Raptor05121]

From what *I* understand about FSDOs is the FAA releases very vague rulings, that is up to determination of that particular inspector. I've seen it on these forums and others- someone will get something easily approved by their local FSDO, someone else online tries the same with another office and a different inspector will tell them no. Tread carefully.

[tony]

Unless the STC authorizes removal of the vacuum pump, you need to leave it installed.  You should never ask a question you can't stand the answer to.  

[MB65E]

The TCDS authorizes the removal in the Notes section, and not the STC. The STC doesn't know or care what is previously installed. 

-Matt

[tony]

2 hours ago, MB65E said:

The TCDS authorizes the removal in the Notes section, and not the STC. The STC doesn't know or care what is previously installed. 

-Matt

you are correct!  I learn something new everyday.  So you can remove the pump.  

from the 2A3:

NOTE 24: Aircraft models that originally were certified with vacuum powered attitude systems that have those systems replaced with a non-vacuum powered attitude system: If the Primary Attitude system has been replaced with an FAA Approved STC’d installation that meets the requirements of 14 CFR 23.1303(f)(i)(ii)(iii)(iv)(v)(vi), 23.1311(a)(1)(2)(5)(6)(b)(c), 23.1321(a)((c)(d)(1), 23.1331(a)(b)(1)(2)(c), thereby leaving no operational systems dependent on a Primary or Standby (if equipped) Vacuum system, then the Primary and Standby (if equipped) Vacuum pumps and associated lines, manifolds, etc may be removed from the aircraft. Refer to engine manufacturer’s instructions of removal and capping off of engine driven vacuum pumps.

[kortopates]

I could be wrong, but its my recollection that Craig here, Mr Mooneyspace, was the instigator of this TCDS change. His early adoption of the 3 panel ASPEN system made him the first Mooney wanting to ditch his vacuum pump.

[zerotact]

Did you mount an antenna or were you able to get a good signal with the g5's internal one?

[NotarPilot]

1 hour ago, zerotact said:

Did you mount an antenna or were you able to get a good signal with the g5's internal one?

The avionics guy was about to use the WAAS GPS output signal from my IFD440 so no additional GPS antenna had to be mounted.

[Marauder]

Did you mount an antenna or were you able to get a good signal with the g5's internal one?

If I am not mistaken, if you go the route of using the G5's GPS it requires the mounting of an external antenna.


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[N6758N]

5 hours ago, NotarPilot said:

The avionics guy was about to use the WAAS GPS output signal from my IFD440 so no additional GPS antenna had to be mounted.

Correct, the G5 can use any WAAS position source. Only necessary to mount an additional antenna if you do not have a WAAS GPS in your panel. 

[N6758N]

1 hour ago, bluehighwayflyer said:

Ok. I get all that of that. I have a question I haven't seen answered, though. Can the G5's internal GPS be used as a WAAS position source for ADS-B out equipment?  In other words, can the G5 export its GPS position data?

Jim

I would not think so. The WAAS position source for the ADS-B out has to be an approved source under a TSO which I can't remember at the moment. Good question, let me look through the FARs and see if I can find it. Edit- I don't trust this 100%... but if you look under the Q&A on Aircraft spruce they address this specific issue more than once.

[RustyNance]

Similar question, but reversed.  I have the Stratus ESGi installed and am considering adding the Garmin G5.  I really don't want to add another GPS antennae to my plane and only have a KLN90B non-WAAS GPS.  Can the Stratus export the WAAS information to the G5 or can they share the same antennae?

 

V/R

Rusty Nance

2719W

 

[Igor_U]

21 hours ago, RustyNance said:

Similar question, but reversed.  I have the Stratus ESGi installed and am considering adding the Garmin G5.  I really don't want to add another GPS antennae to my plane and only have a KLN90B non-WAAS GPS.  Can the Stratus export the WAAS information to the G5 or can they share the same antennae?

 

V/R

Rusty Nance

2719W

 

I had the same question. I believe you can't do that as Stratus ESG is not on the list of equipment as GPS source for G5. However, Garmin GTX 335/345 is. you might want to check the latest revision of G5 install manual; I have Rev 10.

 

[gsxrpilot]

I have an Avidyne IFD540 acting as the GPS source for a G5. Garmin won't tell you it works, but it does.

[N201MKTurbo]

5 minutes ago, gsxrpilot said:

I have an Avidyne IFD540 acting as the GPS source for a G5. Garmin won't tell you it works, but it does.

Yes it does.

[amillet]

Garmin announces third-party autopilot support for the G5 electronic flight instrument

https://newsroom.garmin.com/press-release/featured-releases/garmin-announces-third-party-autopilot-support-g5-electronic-flight-

The G5 still can’t replace the KI256, correct?

[N201MKTurbo]

6 minutes ago, amillet said:

Garmin announces third-party autopilot support for the G5 electronic flight instrument

https://newsroom.garmin.com/press-release/featured-releases/garmin-announces-third-party-autopilot-support-g5-electronic-flight-

The G5 still can’t replace the KI256, correct?

That is old news.

It only applies to heading reference, not the attitude reference.

[carqwik]

Hate to resurrect this...but I'm thinking of doing dual G5 units (flush mount I hope) to replace the old King legacy KI-256 and -525.  A shop I talked with said that the KI-256 had to stay in place...and this was his comment as of last week.  I believe that now with dual G5s, there is no longer a need to keep the KI-256 and the vacuum system can be removed entirely.  Is this correct?

[KSMooniac]

Hate to resurrect this...but I'm thinking of doing dual G5 units (flush mount I hope) to replace the old King legacy KI-256 and -525.  A shop I talked with said that the KI-256 had to stay in place...and this was his comment as of last week.  I believe that now with dual G5s, there is no longer a need to keep the KI-256 and the vacuum system can be removed entirely.  Is this correct?

Not correct. The G5 & GAD-29B can replace the -525 system (indicator, remote gyro, flux gate) but the G5 cannot provide attitude inputs to your autopilot so the 256 must stay. King has the KI-300 electronic/vaporware replacement for the 256 that might finally be available if you want to go all-electric.

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[KSMooniac]

I'll add that if the KI-300 is actually available, compare the cost with dual G5 + the new GFC-500 complete autopilot and selling your old stuff. The 300 is pretty expensive, I believe, but at least installation should be reasonable.

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[carqwik]

Hmmm...the A/P (KFC-150) is 20+ years old, barely works in NAV mode, and parts/repair are very expensive....so dual G5s plus the GFC-500 (and servos) brings the plane up to date, removes the vacuum system, and gives me GPSS...for what price though?  20 AMUs?

[KSMooniac]

My rough guess is 17-18k in hardware costs but I haven't gotten firm quotes for myself yet. There will be considerable labor to remove the existing stuff, and install the new stuff...if you're handy you might be able to do a lot of the grunt work to reduce the installation cost. I removed a KFC200 from my salvage plane years ago and it was a bit of work, even with the plane in pieces and not needing to reuse the airframe.

I'm of the opinion that spending more than 1 AMU on a legacy system is likely better spent towards the new stuff. I have an STEC30 and am debating the GFC500 instead of the STEC3100 at twice the price and still uses my old/old tech servos.

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[Bob - S50]

5 hours ago, carqwik said:

Hmmm...the A/P (KFC-150) is 20+ years old, barely works in NAV mode, and parts/repair are very expensive....so dual G5s plus the GFC-500 (and servos) brings the plane up to date, removes the vacuum system, and gives me GPSS...for what price though?  20 AMUs?

We have a bid of $10,400 to remove the KFC200 and install dual G5's flush mounted in the panel.  Waiting to see what the installation kit will cost for the GFC500 but planning on about $10,000 for autopilot with 4 servos plus installation kit plus installation.