Flying to close, what would you have done, if anything.

[Tony Armour]

9 hours ago, bradp said:

No mention of VFR traffic advisory service from Harrisburg so far in this thread - except that both pilots were not using it.

It's not so big a sky.  Use /all/ of the tools at our disposal.

 

Excellent point regarding the flight following.

[Mooneymite]

A lot of conversation here about the importance of radio calls.  In most airspace that my Mooney traverses, a radio is not required....nor is ADS-B, or even a transponder.  Just see and avoid.

Scary, but that's the law.

[Hank]

5 hours ago, Mooneymite said:

A lot of conversation here about the importance of radio calls.  In most airspace that my Mooney traverses, a radio is not required....nor is ADS-B, or even a transponder.  Just see and avoid.

Scary, but that's the law.

What scares me, Gus, is the number of people who fly along not looking outside, trusting their radio, "fish finder" and/or ADS-B to point out traffic. I generally get flight following, but it's "workload permitting" on ATC's part and they don't always point out nearby traffic. 

See and Avoid is the rule, but too many people think it's Radio and Avoid. The radio is a good tool, but it's only as good as everyone's position calls, and we have all heard radio calls off by 5-10 miles and sometimes even the wrong direction from the airport. Those don't do much good . . . I've given myself eye strain and taken evasive maneuvers because someone else called in very near my position north of the field; they apologized later for the confusion, they were south of the field, heading north. So listening to the radio did nothing to increase safety as I was avoiding a plane that was almost ten miles away. No wonder I couldn't see it nearby!

See and avoid, people. See and avoid. Use all of your tools, but look outside the windows,that's the only way to see, and you can't avoid what you don't SEE with your two eyeballs.

[Mooneymite]

9 hours ago, Hank said:

See and avoid, people. See and avoid. Use all of your tools, but look outside the windows,that's the only way to see, and you can't avoid what you don't SEE with your two eyeballs.

Many years ago when I was a runway comittee volunteer in our fly-in community, I got an irate call from a resident raising hell about all the nordo airplanes.  He insisted we pass a rule requiring a radio for all residents.

About a month later I see this guy out doing touch and goes, but I'm not hearing him make any radio calls.  When I querried him about it later, he sheepishly admitted he'd  been on the wrong frequecy the whole time.

Just because radio calls are made, there's no assurance of communication.

Look, see, avoid.  Talking and listening are secondary.

[rbridges]

On 10/7/2016 at 4:13 PM, AndyFromCB said:

Oh yeah, everybody these days seem to have a PhD. I know a lot more PhDs than pilots in real life by a good 10 to 1 ratio. About 600,000 pilots total, about 2,800,000 PhDs.

Judging by the quality of "doctors" at the local tech school, I think you can almost sleepwalk your way through some doctorate programs.

[Mooneymite]

51 minutes ago, rbridges said:

Judging by the quality of "doctors" at the local tech school, I think you can almost sleepwalk your way through some doctorate programs.

That's  sooo judgemental!  You have no sppreciation for the four years I spent in first grade.

[rbridges]

Just now, Mooneymite said:

That's  sooo judgemental!  You have no sppreciation for the four years I spent in first grade.

OMG Gus!  How many times have I told you that your GED is awesome?

[Hank]

Just now, rbridges said:

OMG Gus!  How many times have I told you that your GED is awesome?

What else would you expect him to do with his spare time since he retired???  

[Mooneymite]

12 minutes ago, Hank said:

What else would you expect him to do with his spare time since he retired???  

Okay, you guys.  Time for me to buy you lunch again!

McDonalds, or Subway at the end of the runway.  You pick.  

[mike20papa]

I've tried reading this incident report and it is unclear that N423PS is inside the class D when he initially sights the Barron.  It sounds like initial contact is made to the tower after sighting the Barron and only then is a squawk code given and clearance to enter the class D and proceed to the downwind.  Sounds like most of the initial contact and set up for the problem is outside the class D.

[Danb]

13 hours ago, mike20papa said:

I've tried reading this incident report and it is unclear that N423PS is inside the class D when he initially sights the Barron.  It sounds like initial contact is made to the tower after sighting the Barron and only then is a squawk code given and clearance to enter the class D and proceed to the downwind.  Sounds like most of the initial contact and set up for the problem is outside the class D.

Mikeyour correct, I generally call into class D at a gererous 15 miles out, I noticed the plane above around 18 miles or so out, I called in at 15 and it was confirmed a plane was just past me. 

[N601RX]

Why did the ADSB not show him until he was so close. It seems it should have showed him decending and overtaking you from above and behind. What alert settings do you have set?

[NotarPilot]

On 10/7/2016 at 9:50 PM, jrwilson said:

I was on the 45 going into Columbia o22 and had been announcing my position.  Out of nowhere, a green camouflaged L-3, cub type thing goes by 20' below me.  He had a sky-light and I see the pilot and passenger looking up at me with an "oh crap" look on their faces.  We were that close,. He starts talking on the radio at that point.  

I parked at the pump and he parked nearby.  I was going to yell at him, but he walked over first, apologized and said he was transmitting, just on the wrong frequency.  So while he screwed up, he was at least very courteous about it afterwards...

 

In my opinion that is part of what true airmanship is all about. Putting your ego aside and admitting you f'd up. Very rare nowadays in America from my perspective. 

[jkhirsch]

On 10/7/2016 at 7:00 PM, AndyFromCB said:

 Radio solves very little until in or close to pattern.

It's obvious now that I misread the original post, I thought this happened on the downwind leg. That's why I was all jacked up, clearly it was for nought.

And yes Yetti, I work very hard to avoid all mistakes--not just when flying--especially ones that can or will kill someone.

You're alive so I assume you participate in the same practice.

[jkhirsch]

Anyway, my mistake and I apologize because I was wrong in that I thought this took place in the pattern. (on the downwind leg)

[DaV8or]

On October 8, 2016 at 1:11 AM, Mooneymite said:

A lot of conversation here about the importance of radio calls.  In most airspace that my Mooney traverses, a radio is not required....nor is ADS-B, or even a transponder.  Just see and avoid.

Scary, but that's the law.

The law is pretty much irrelevant. Survival is. Use it all people because "see and avoid" is proven to be crap. So are radios. Traffic information systems are still evolving, but their very nature means they can only be partly effective. Because the law is weak and doesn't require radios, standardized patterns entries, or patterns for that matter, no requirement for traffic information systems, or transponders, and no requirement for exterior collision avoidance lighting, we are left to whatever devices we can come up with.

Use 'em all.

[DaV8or]

On October 8, 2016 at 7:12 AM, Hank said:

What scares me, Gus, is the number of people who fly along not looking outside, trusting their radio, "fish finder" and/or ADS-B to point out traffic.

And you know this to be true how??? Do you have GoPro cameras in everybody else's cockpit? No, it's just another biased assumption.

Take a critical look at your Mooney. It is an exercise in blind spots. Little tiny windows, but they look cool. The visibility is actually pretty poor and there are planes that are even worse. See and avoid is just a tool that you can use. It by itself will not save you. To chalk every mid air collision up to a failure of see and avoid is ridiculous and short sighted. 

[Andy95W]

Just now, DaV8or said:

And you know this to be true how??? Do you have GoPro cameras in everybody else's cockpit? No, it's just another biased assumption.

Sorry, Dave, I think I'm with Hank on this one.  Back in 1999 when I was actively instructing, I did a BFR for a guy who had one of the original TCAD units (passive traffic device).  Whenever someone would call on the radio in the pattern, this guy looked inside at the TCAD.  I had to threaten him with "if you don't look outside for traffic, I can't sign off your BFR" before he would.  And this was in the days of boring old VOR, ADF, and DME.  I think with the proliferation of moving map displays and iPads, the problem has gotten worse, not better.  I am embarrassed to admit that I am guilty of this myself, on occasion.

[Marauder]

That's  sooo judgemental!  You have no sppreciation for the four years I spent in first grade.

I always had you pegged for a Road's Scholar (spelling mistake for you Deb & David).


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[Marauder]

I don't know about the dependency of people on technology, but I can tell you because of technology I am looking for a lot more airplanes than before I had the technology. It is amazing how many get lost in the haze and background.


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[NotarPilot]

5 hours ago, DaV8or said:

And you know this to be true how??? Do you have GoPro cameras in everybody else's cockpit? No, it's just another biased assumption.

Take a critical look at your Mooney. It is an exercise in blind spots. Little tiny windows, but they look cool. The visibility is actually pretty poor and there are planes that are even worse. See and avoid is just a tool that you can use. It by itself will not save you. To chalk every mid air collision up to a failure of see and avoid is ridiculous and short sighted. 

I would venture to guess that technology can be a seductress to keeping the eyes inside the cockpit much more than they should. While not proud of it, I have done, I have seen it, I have heard others admit to it, I have heard others talk about how they have seen it, I have even read NTSB reports about it (Remember Eastern Airlines flight 401 crash into the Everglades?). I'll bet the distractions happen more than you're comfortable to think about. Unless you're a very well disciplined pilot, it is very easy to get caught looking inside when you should really be looking outside. But hey, when you spent $100k on a panel, you want to look at the goods right? I guess they can be likened to buying implants for the wife or girlfriend. If you're gonna spend the money you might as well enjoy looking at them while you can. 

[Jerry 5TJ]

Glass panels are like breast implants?  I'd never quite, ah, looked at them that way before. 

Next time I reach out to gently caress a new waypoint into the GTN750 I'll keep that image in mind.

You're right; the lure of bright lights and graphic displays can be distracting. Good thing the traffic is up on screen 2, and terrain on screen 3....

[Marauder]

I would venture to guess that technology can be a seductress to keeping the eyes inside the cockpit much more than they should. While not proud of it, I have done, I have seen it, I have heard others admit to it, I have heard others talk about how they have seen it, I have even read NTSB reports about it (Remember Eastern Airlines flight 401 crash into the Everglades?). I'll bet the distractions happen more than you're comfortable to think about. Unless you're a very well disciplined pilot, it is very easy to get caught looking inside when you should really be looking outside. But hey, when you spent $100k on a panel, you want to look at the goods right? I guess they can be likened to buying implants for the wife or girlfriend. If you're gonna spend the money you might as well enjoy looking at them while you can. 

I think technology can certainly aid in the workload reduction for a pilot, especially single pilot IFR. It is when that technology becomes a dependency or substitution for the skills the pilot should be maintaining that a problem exists.

Thinking back about my flying in IMC years ago following a scalloping CDI from a radio designed in the 1960s and built in the 1970s doesn't give me a lot of warm and fuzzies. Heck it is right up there with carrying a can of ether to fire up my 1972 Mercury Comet that wouldn't start on cold winter mornings.

The balance between maintaining those pilots skills we spent a lot to obtain and proper usage of the technology that we also spent a lot to acquire is what is needed.



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[Marauder]

Glass panels are like breast implants?  I'd never quite, ah, looked at them that way before. 

Next time I reach out to gently caress a new waypoint into the GTN750 I'll keep that image in mind.

You're right; the lure of bright lights and graphic displays can be distracting. Good thing the traffic is up on screen 2, and terrain on screen 3....

Hey buddy! Don't forget I flew a lot of hours with you this past year. Your fondling of your panel stacks right up there with that guy who discovers a strip joint for the first time only to get escorted out of the establishment.

You couldn't keep your hands off of the merchandise either!

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[pinerunner]

A friend of mine at work had an aunt who died in WW II. Mary H. Howson died near the end of her training to be a ferry pilot. The accident is illustrative of our problem though at an earlier stage. Miss Howson was returning from a training cross country and had a head-on collision with a pilot doing pattern work. She was on a right base-leg while the other was on a left base leg for the same runway. (I had to read that twice)  Somehow they failed to see each other in time. There were a lot of training accidents with the male pilots in WW II as well. Clearly the safety of the big sky that had been fine for pilots leading up to that time and had served Lindburg well fell down when you tried to run a crash course for thousands of new pilots in the big war. I think they had radios and controllers but they were all new and learning on the job too. They had to invent some of the rules and procedures we take for granted by finding things out the hard way.

I was raised on an seaplane base and we hardly ever saw another plane. So the big sky theory got us by. Now I'm flying an old but sweet Mooney and working on my IFR rating and life is completely different. Proper communication is the single hardest thing I'm having to learn. If they'd just clear everyone else out of the sky IFR would be easy. I've also noticed that I'm often not the first to spot other traffic. That bugs me. I'm competing against younger eyes (I'm 60) but still.

There are a few articles out there about the problems with see and avoid. Planes can get into each others blind spot, a plane on a collision course will appear to not move relative to yours so its harder to pick out. Most pilots aren't doing as much deer hunting as they used to so they're less practiced at picking out stationary objects against a background. I think this thread is very important. How best to see and avoid and how and when to arrange the office work when flying our efficient old planes while using the radio like pros makes for a great debate. Where are the choke points up there where other traffic becomes more likely? Obviously near airports, but where else? What's the best way to approach an airport so as not to surprise or be surprised? Will ADSB really make it easier in 2020 when it becomes required almost everywhere expect way out in the boonies? Maybe they'll be a whole new category of accident where pilots used to it fly to Alaska and run afoul of pilots who take it for granted you're looking out the window.