Funny conversation between controllers

[yvesg]

Ran into this on another forum.

 

[gsengle]

Never had Center hesitate to vector or suggest headings!

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[cnoe]

Is that recording for real?!! Those guys could make a living doing stand-up.

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[peevee]

7 hours ago, gsengle said:

Never had Center hesitate to vector or suggest headings!

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A lot will not turn a VFR in class E/G. It was a hot topic in the agency a year or two ago to change that mindset.

[peevee]

6 hours ago, cnoe said:

Is that recording for real?!! Those guys could make a living doing stand-up.

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quality is too good, makes me suspect. Also only the lines are recorded usually. Not conversations between the r side and d side or r sides sitting next to each other.

[gsengle]

5 hours ago, peevee said:

A lot will not turn a VFR in class E/G. It was a hot topic in the agency a year or two ago to change that mindset.

Even if they phrased it as "suggest heading xxx" to avoid, collision, large cell, etc?

[201er]

I don't see what the problem with ATC giving headings to a VFR is. If the VFR aircraft doesn't like what he's getting, he can just punch 1200 and say seeya!

[peevee]

6 hours ago, gsengle said:

Even if they phrased it as "suggest heading xxx" to avoid, collision, large cell, etc?

Yeah... as they eluded in the recording some feel it's a liability, especially around terrain because the VFR guy is likely below the MVA. A lot won't because the aircraft are not under their control technically. I can't remember much because it was a couple years ago, but they made a point to emphasize that they want people to vector VFR's if necessary. I mean really if you're issued traffic and you don't see it you should ask for a vector anyway...

Edited July 19, 2016 by peevee

[peevee]

PS I think the guy was really douchey about it when the BE asked.

I also think you should have SOME EFFING AWARENESS where the arrival and departure corridors are at major airports and I dunno, maybe don't fly across them at the gate altitudes... just a thought.

[peevee]

5 hours ago, 201er said:

I don't see what the problem with ATC giving headings to a VFR is. If the VFR aircraft doesn't like what he's getting, he can just punch 1200 and say seeya!

dude just tell them you can't and why briefly and they'll work out something else.

[Hector]

If real, that was just funny! That being said, when I use FF here in the sunshine state I get vectors all the time! Not only that, but I fully expect it. It's the reason I use FF! I welcome a vector that will steer me clear of traffic and if it helps ATC for IFR traffic separation then that's fine with me. I figure it's the price I pay for those guys to keep an eye on me as well.

[bonal]

When I have been on F F I have been vectored climbed and dived many times for traffic and MOA's so not sure what the deal is with these guys.

[Bryan1016]

Very funny.   

[N5756v]

I get vectors when using F F . I thought that was one of the reasons to use F F . That recording was funny stuff

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[Skates97]

The last flight I was on when my CFI told me we were diverting to Palomar I asked SOCAL for the diversion since I was on FF. The nice guy on the other end of the radio gave me the vector to Palomar (not necessary since I could see the field from where I was) at the same time that he gave me the okay to turn and head there.

[Raptor05121]

Interesting. When I was VFR into Myrtle Beach last year, they gave me a vector and then told me to "circle there for a few until we can get you in". After a few airliners made it in, he gave me vectors towards the airport and staggered me into sequence.

[PMcClure]

I was vectored into the restricted area next to Huntsville, AL once. The controller angrily asked me what I was doing there and I told him he vectored me here. No further discussions. Most of the time on VFR FF the headings are "suggested". 

 

[Ftlausa]

I too regularly get vectors when on FF in Florida -- mostly in Class B (which is different, or course), but also in Class C and Class D and E. 

[DXB]

On 7/20/2016 at 8:23 AM, PMcClure said:

I was vectored into the restricted area next to Huntsville, AL once. The controller angrily asked me what I was doing there and I told him he vectored me here. No further discussions. Most of the time on VFR FF the headings are "suggested". 

 

Reminds me of a time on FF last summer when I was vectored on FF straight into the NY Bravo - I let them know a couple NM in advance that the assigned heading was taking me into the Bravo.  And then all I heard back was "71L stay clear of the Bravo."   Well I can't fly the heading and stay clear of the Bravo - which one do you want bro??

[Mooneymite]

4 hours ago, DXB said:

 And then all I heard back was "71L stay clear of the Bravo."   Well I can't fly the heading and stay clear of the Bravo - which one do you want bro??

Sounds like the controller was trying to force you to change altitude.

[Marauder]

I don't think I have ever been given a vector to fly while VFR. I have been asked what my online course heading would be a number of times.

I did have a funny exchange yesterday. I was flying VFR by several restricted airspaces that were to my left. One of them extended over my route but had a floor of 22,000. The controller told me that the restricted airspaces were hot and asked if I was familiar with them. I read off the R number for the airspace I was flying under and told him the altitudes. His response to me was "you would know better than me". I thought those guys were responsible to know that?

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[PTK]

15 minutes ago, Marauder said:

... I thought those guys were responsible to know that?

Well, I would think so. How can they provide "separation services" to IFR traffic otherwise?!

My experience has been very positive with ATC. Occasionally there will be a rookie in training, especially at McGuire or Dover. But there is someone experienced next to them listening who will jump in if and when they need to. This in contrast to NY or PHL controllers who are on top of their game.

[DXB]

2 hours ago, Marauder said:

I don't think I have ever been given a vector to fly while VFR. I have been asked what my online course heading would be a number of times.

 That surprises me given your vastly greater experience and since we both sit next to the Philly Bravo-  I commonly get heading and altitude assignments in rapid sequence to transition it VFR - usually from the south, passing KPHL to reach KPNE.  I've also had it happen a few times within or near the NY Bravo.   Most recent exchange related to this topic was flying direct from KPNE to Burlington VT at 7500.  It went something like this after getting handed from Philly to NY approach on FF, while staying outside the Bravo the whole time :

ATC: "Mooney 71L, say destination and route of flight"

Me: "71L is going to Burlington, BTV, direct"

ATC:  "[with mock indignation]  Oh really? ARE you now Mooney N2971L? [kinda like a parent calling a child by his full name to admonish him] WELL...enjoy checking out the Newark arrivals"

He then hands me to the next approach frequency and actually tells me to expect vectors.  But the next controller is talking in rapid fire to a long line of heavy jets passing close off my right side and I can't find a break to check in.  So I figure it's best just to keep eyes open, watch my traffic display, and not make any unnecessary moves that would stress out ATC.  When I finally get a break to check in:

ATC: "Thanks and good to hear from you 71L!  Hope you enjoyed the show I just put on for you off your right side"

Me:  "Um..yes sir"  (sadly, nothing clever to say)

As a lowly vfr guy, I had no clue I was stumbling into their approach corridor at a busy time of day - maybe I should have known.   It would have been perfectly legal for me to talk to no one for that entire route of flight until the Burlington class C, but I'm sure NY much preferred having me on FF. For the most part I like talking to New York ATC - they project a spectacular level of competence while also maintaining a sense of humor.   The Boston folks in comparison seem just plain surly sometimes.  

[Marauder]

1 hour ago, DXB said:

 That surprises me given your vastly greater experience and since we both sit next to the Philly Bravo-  I commonly get heading and altitude assignments in rapid sequence to transition it VFR - usually from the south, passing KPHL to reach KPNE.  I've also had it happen a few times within or near the NY Bravo.   Most recent exchange related to this topic was flying direct from KPNE to Burlington VT at 7500.  It went something like this after getting handed from Philly to NY approach on FF, while staying outside the Bravo the whole time :

ATC: "Mooney 71L, say destination and route of flight"

Me: "71L is going to Burlington, BTV, direct"

ATC:  "[with mock indignation]  Oh really? ARE you now Mooney N2971L? [kinda like a parent calling a child by his full name to admonish him] WELL...enjoy checking out the Newark arrivals"

He then hands me to the next approach frequency and actually tells me to expect vectors.  But the next controller is talking in rapid fire to a long line of heavy jets passing close off my right side and I can't find a break to check in.  So I figure it's best just to keep eyes open, watch my traffic display, and not make any unnecessary moves that would stress out ATC.  When I finally get a break to check in:

ATC: "Thanks and good to hear from you 71L!  Hope you enjoyed the show I just put on for you off your right side"

Me:  "Um..yes sir"  (sadly, nothing clever to say)

As a lowly vfr guy, I had no clue I was stumbling into their approach corridor at a busy time of day - maybe I should have known.   It would have been perfectly legal for me to talk to no one for that entire route of flight until the Burlington class C, but I'm sure NY much preferred having me on FF. For the most part I like talking to New York ATC - they project a spectacular level of competence while also maintaining a sense of humor.   The Boston folks in comparison seem just plain surly sometimes.  

When you fly in and under the Bravo, there is a more heightened awareness of your position and direction of flight. At the end of the day their responsibility is maintain separation. 

Often when you are asked for your on course heading, it is simply to see where you may conflict with traffic they need keep you separated from. On my flight yesterday I was descending and was made aware of jet traffic 500 feet below me but converging at my 12 o'clock. He turned the jet to eliminate the conflict. 

I'm sure there are more examples of "control" placed on VFR flights, but at the end of the day, their responsibility is to separate traffic.
 

[PMcClure]

Question - when asked for heading, do you give your heading or course? I respond with my compass heading but that doesn't account for wind correction angle which I have seen as high as 30 degrees. If they are asking that for traffic separation, it seems they need the course?