Annual woes with m20c

[airplanesfly]

I decided to take my 1964 m20c to a mooney repair center this year for the annual. The mx for the past 5 years has been completed by the local airport mechanic, but they do not have much mooney experience. The plane has been at the service center since March of this year( and I have no estimate of when I will get it back). A few of the bigger problems found during the annual inspection were:

1. Crankshaft gear bolt lock tab in engine oil screen (and no, I did not have a prop strike that I am aware of from looking through the logs) 

2. Lower tube on roll cage assy on pilot side has pen sized hole - and turns out the entire tube is corroded thru 

3. Left mag shaft is loose

The shop has replaced the lock tab, but is stalled on the tube repair and the mag. I call the shop every 2 weeks to check on my plane, and when the corrosion problem was found, they had to figure out if they needed to replace the entire tube or find a part plane and weld a new section of tube on. The shop has decided they can do the latter method by pulling off skin panels to access for welding. The shop also got "busy" and stuck my airplane outside for a month to figure out this solution. The shop is a 4hour drive away and I have driven there to check on my plane and show that I am an involved owner that wants to understand the aircraft mx.

So my question for the forum is how long does this kind of repair usually take? Have you had these repairs done on your plane? How do repair shops prioritize the work? I feel like whenever I call now, even though the shop has a way forward for the repair, there has been no progress made on the repair. I am getting extremely frustrated that the shop cannot even give me an estimated date for completion. I have also asked for an estimated price for the repair(s) and they have not provided it. I am struggling with making demands of the shop and being understanding about the workload of the shop. But why isn't my plane higher priority!!!! How do you all handle extensive repairs with mechanics and ensuring timely completion? Do I need to give them a deadline and be more demanding? I missed many beautiful flying days and I want my plane back!!!!  Thanks for reading and providing me any recommendations and experiences you may have had. 

[rbridges]

I really don't have any helpful info about your situation, but I'm sure some people here do.  I would suggest putting in your location.  This will help people give options based on who may be available in your area.

[RLCarter]

I would talk directly with the owner and shop supervisor in person with a cold call (just show up) and ask why it keeps getting pushed back. Get things in writing, a really good way is email (save them on the computer). Do a follow up email after the meeting with verbiage along the lines of as per meeting on ??/??/???? you stated that it was going to be this much and this long....... As for the tube repair, why find a donor plane when all you have to do is buy a piece of new tubing and splice it in, chances are its a straight piece (not curved). All repair shops, be it Aircraft, Automotive, Boat, etc...... do the same thing, they get into a repair that is going to take longer than they thought and turn it into a "project" which keeps getting pushed back in line so they can keep the cash flow coming in. If they are a Mooney Service Center, they should be able to handle most any job that comes through the door. Arrange your meeting for in the morning and give them till the close of the business day to come up with a game plan...  its a risk driving that far and not having the person(s) be there but its one I would take, it puts them in the hot seat with no warning, be polite and calm and have your questions lined out before you go, i.e... "Why is my plane not being worked on", "How many hours to replace the tube", "Why are you looking for a donor, chromoly tubing is easily purchased","When is plane going to be ready and what is going to cost me". Good luck on getting this resolved. One last piece of advice is not to slam the MSC's name here on MS, could cause you issues down the road. Keep us up to date on the progress and responses 

[N601RX]

They may not have the ability to complete the tubing repair.  If they were trying to decide if they needed a parts plane or not  it's very likely they don't.  

Another possibility depending on the size of the shop is they know this is going to take a lot of time and will essentially stop their regular customers normal flow of work through the shop. I would want to know that the tube repair had been completed correctly before spending any additional money on the other repairs

[DXB]

Sorry for your troubles - this sounds seriously painful both in terms of the repairs you need and the longs delays.  I have certainly had delays with my plane but none this bad. My approach has been to communicate on the phone about once a week, show up at the shop periodically, to look at the progress, and try to maintain a good rapport with the folks even when I'm getting frustrated.  Not sure that you have other options since you can't fly it to another shop in its present state.  

[carusoam]

Have they been able to determine the extent of the corrosion issue?

Often the source of tube corrosion is outdoor storage combined with leaky windows.  The tubes below the leaky windows are at risk.

Essentially there is a procedure to follow to determine the health of the tubes.  Follow this, before fixing one tube to find that there may be more.

Often a Mooney PPI is performed looking for this  specific issue.  The logs will surely have this procedure recorded when it came out a while ago.  People started buying covers for their planes to stem this issue as well.

How long have you owned this plane?

Best regards,

-a-

[Marauder]

My guess on the delays is aligned with N601RX. They blocked out an annual inspection with you and you gave them a project. I think it is fair to sit down with ownership and map out a timeline.

I also think you should have a conversation with the mechanic who maintained it for the past 5 years. You took it to a MSC to obviously see what your current mechanic was missing. Now you know. I would look to see if SB-208 was ever completed on the plane. Your previous mechanic should have verified that was completed. It is more than just inspecting the tubing, it also deals with insulation that promoted the corrosion.

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[Danb]

5-6 months with limited work to date, jeez I feel bad for you, other than considering the diplomatic approach as stated above it may be time to get tough sometimes the squeaky wheel gets the oil. I agree an e-mail trail would be beneficial as will having a good discussion with the shop. Since they are a MSC consider discussing the issue with the Mooney company even if you wait until the work is complete. You definitely need an estimate, sticker shock could be tremendous. Hopefully you'll have a good outcome, your prior five years may be a good lesson for taking your plane to a quality shop or mechanic. Many years ago I used a good mechanic who was not Mooney specific and it cost me in the end, pay now or later, it was a lesson learned for me.

 

[Guest]

When you go to visit bring along a copy of SB M20-208b have them show you which tubes are effected.  The picture is on page 6 and the tubing material call out is on page 5.

http://www.mooney.com/en/sb/M20-208B.pdf

Clarence

[takair]

I agree with the above input.  This is a tough situation.  As others have said, a discussion needs to happen.  Find out who will be doing the repair and perhaps even ask to meet them.  Not all shops have experienced welders.  Even if they do, they may not be comfortable with the job.  You will learn a lot by having the conversation.  If they can not tell you who will be doing the work, perhaps you would want to have a discussion about bringing someone in who can do it.  If the time and plan is not firmed up, you can be there a long time.  Also, have a clear understanding of cost and payment method.  The shop may be nervous about starting the job due to a perception of value...to you and them.  Have you discussed budget?

To summarize:. Talk to them, determine capability....including who they will have do the work, get a quote on price and time frame.  May also want to look at alternatives.  Are there other shops on the field who may be capable? Can they finish the annual inspection...including engine repairs....and provide a ferry permit to fly it to a shop capable of doing the sheetmetal and welding.

[Guest]

I'm not sure of the U.S. requirements, but in Canada welding is considered "Specialized Work" to be completed by an Approved Maintenance Organization or CRS with a welding approval.  No field maintainer may do the weld.

Its very valid to ask about qualifications.

Clarence

[Raptor05121]

I can feel OP's pain. I hope he gets it all straightened out.

[takair]

40 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

I'm not sure of the U.S. requirements, but in Canada welding is considered "Specialized Work" to be completed by an Approved Maintenance Organization or CRS with a welding approval.  No field maintainer may do the weld.

Its very valid to ask about qualifications.

Clarence

Not required for typical tube work.  Just needs to be done IAW MM or 43.13.  There are areas where specialization is called out, but I can't think of specifics at the moment.  That said, I wouldn't let just anyone, including myself, weld my plane unless I saw some previous work.

[nels]

Is there another shop on the field? If not, I'd be looking for a shop within ferry distance.  Possibly you can get an estimate from another shop, if they are close enough, before you do anything. You might have wayyyy more invested in the repair than you might think; so much so that parting the plane you have and buying another might be the best way to go. 

[Cyril Gibb]

12 hours ago, airplanesfly said:

The shop also got "busy" and stuck my airplane outside for a month to figure out this solution.

After having your plane since March, an MSC got "busy" and put your Mooney with tubing corrosion problems outside for a month?  Am I the only person who thinks this is beyond bizarre?

I'd love to hear the other side of this story.

[RLCarter]

If their in house guy cant weld like this find someone who can, Chassis Builders (drag racing) work with thin wall 4130 everyday, TIG (heli-arc) is the only way to have it done. What city/state are you in?

[MB65E]

OP- best of luck. Hopefully the corrosion is only localized. RL, that's pretty. Too bad not a single weld on a factory mooney looks that nice! Every year I practice at OSH with the Lincon/Miller guys until they kick me out. Might buy a small set up one year. 

-Matt

[Mr Bill]

One option is to have them sign off the inspection with a list of discrepancies, get another A&P to certify that airplane is safe to ferry, and get a ferry permit to get it to someplace where the work will get done. Another option is to hire the services of Mike Busch and let him arrange the next step, Don't let the shop remove any exterior skin panels until you know what your next step will be. If they do that, you will be stuck with this shop. Remember, the shop that does the inspection can provide a list of discrepancies and another shop may correct them. Once they are corrected and signed off, you will not need another annual.See FAR part 43.

Good luck with your project.

Bill

[jetdriven]

with holes in the tubing no airframe mechanic will sign that ferry permit. Busch wont get involved with ex-post-facto deals like this but you can ask him.  I hard it ws 2K for the first tube, a grand for each tube after that, and thats a base rate, straight tube cost.  If its a couple or 4 grand, just pay the man to have them welded in and roll on.   Next time get a real pre buy. A friend of mine was about to buy N121AS.  I asked him did you pull the plastic and inspect the tubes. I mean really inspect the tubes and photos, all that. Turns out several of them were rusted out. Like 8-10 of them. He passed and bought a nice J. Another unsuspecting buyer bought N121AS and likely, about now, will find the 20K in repairs needed. because the sellers were those kind of people, conceal, lie, and misrepresent. 

Edited July 18, 2016 by jetdriven

[Gary0747]

Make sure the holes in the tubing are caused by corrosion and not just holes drilled for PK screws that hold or might have held metal brackets for mounting ur plastic. 

[airplanesfly]

I called the MSC this morning and asked them to work toward being finished with the repair by the week of Aug 8. The panels have already been removed. I also asked for a cost estimate by COB tomorrow. I am fearful of what the number will be and if payment in full is necessary (which I did not ask because I was so focused on getting my plane back). I was also told that because my plane went from "annual inspection" to "project", that it went into the priority line behind 2 other major repair project the shop had already. they said the other projects are getting caught up so more manpower can be put to my plane.

to answer a few questions:

• the holes in the tube are definitely corrosion. you can take a screwdriver and poke at the hole and the tube just falls away. and they are on the pilot side. the co-pilot side does not indicate the same level of corrosion and the MSC said they did not need to replace this tube but could remove any corrosion that was present.
• SB-208 had been addressed at least 6 years ago from what I could find in the logs. I found a list of the SBs and the date of inspection from 6 years ago, but not from recent mx. The fiberglass insulation was replaced but I do not think continued inspection of the tubes and removal of previous corrosion was completed. The on-field mechanic that has done the annuals for the past 5 years mentioned the hole in the tube to me when he was replacing pilot side seat tracks and found water damage on the floor. He indicated it was a pin sized hole that we could wait to deal with at a later date. well, now is that later date.   I have only owned the airplane for 1 year, so I am still learning all the mooney specific items that need inspection and mx. hence why I started posting to this forum! to learn more!!   Thanks everyone for your input

 

[Marauder]

I called the MSC this morning and asked them to work toward being finished with the repair by the week of Aug 8. The panels have already been removed. I also asked for a cost estimate by COB tomorrow. I am fearful of what the number will be and if payment in full is necessary (which I did not ask because I was so focused on getting my plane back). I was also told that because my plane went from "annual inspection" to "project", that it went into the priority line behind 2 other major repair project the shop had already. they said the other projects are getting caught up so more manpower can be put to my plane.

to answer a few questions:

• the holes in the tube are definitely corrosion. you can take a screwdriver and poke at the hole and the tube just falls away. and they are on the pilot side. the co-pilot side does not indicate the same level of corrosion and the MSC said they did not need to replace this tube but could remove any corrosion that was present.
• SB-208 had been addressed at least 6 years ago from what I could find in the logs. I found a list of the SBs and the date of inspection from 6 years ago, but not from recent mx. The fiberglass insulation was replaced but I do not think continued inspection of the tubes and removal of previous corrosion was completed. The on-field mechanic that has done the annuals for the past 5 years mentioned the hole in the tube to me when he was replacing pilot side seat tracks and found water damage on the floor. He indicated it was a pin sized hole that we could wait to deal with at a later date. well, now is that later date.   I have only owned the airplane for 1 year, so I am still learning all the mooney specific items that need inspection and mx. hence why I started posting to this forum! to learn more!!   Thanks everyone for your input

 

Sorry about this situation. You won't be the first owner that got caught in something like this. Nor do I doubt you'll be the last. Hopefully, you will get her back and it will be behind you.

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[Patto]

On 7/19/2016 at 7:53 AM, airplanesfly said:

I called the MSC this morning and asked them to work toward being finished with the repair by the week of Aug 8. The panels have already been removed. I also asked for a cost estimate by COB tomorrow. I am fearful of what the number will be and if payment in full is necessary (which I did not ask because I was so focused on getting my plane back). I was also told that because my plane went from "annual inspection" to "project", that it went into the priority line behind 2 other major repair project the shop had already. they said the other projects are getting caught up so more manpower can be put to my plane.

to answer a few questions:

• the holes in the tube are definitely corrosion. you can take a screwdriver and poke at the hole and the tube just falls away. and they are on the pilot side. the co-pilot side does not indicate the same level of corrosion and the MSC said they did not need to replace this tube but could remove any corrosion that was present.
• SB-208 had been addressed at least 6 years ago from what I could find in the logs. I found a list of the SBs and the date of inspection from 6 years ago, but not from recent mx. The fiberglass insulation was replaced but I do not think continued inspection of the tubes and removal of previous corrosion was completed. The on-field mechanic that has done the annuals for the past 5 years mentioned the hole in the tube to me when he was replacing pilot side seat tracks and found water damage on the floor. He indicated it was a pin sized hole that we could wait to deal with at a later date. well, now is that later date.   I have only owned the airplane for 1 year, so I am still learning all the mooney specific items that need inspection and mx. hence why I started posting to this forum! to learn more!!   Thanks everyone for your input

 

Keep your spirits up.  I'm sure it will be worth it when you get your plane back and can fly it home.

[takair]

Would you mind posting photos to help the rest of us understand where the gotchas are?  Sounds like your original mechanic bought you some time, but I'm not sure many guys would have let that go.  I'm sure it will work out well once completed.  Hang in there.

[airplanesfly]

turns out the parts plane, where the lower cage tube was going to come from, was a 1966 M20C and the part could not be used for my 1964 m20C. apparently, on the post-1964 models, mooney started putting more bars on their roll cages. so the part had to come direct from mooney after all. additionally, the magneto shaft just needed tightening - looseness fixed.

here are some pictures of the corrosion damage on the tube and its location. the first one is from the outside of the plane on the pilot side. the skin is off so the roll cage is visible. i drew an arrow on the picture to indicate where the hole is located. the second is looking up from the belly - this is the only way to see the hole itself.