Racing Mooneys for the lulz.

[Capt_CrashN_Burn]

If you were to build a Mooney racer for the Sport Air Racing League, Which do you think would be the better body, medium or short.

Specifically, let's keep this to the 4 cyl Mooneys, let's say, one with the IO-390. Now if cost was no object and you could strip either down into a full blown race plane (withing the rules) which one do you think would end up faster??

 

http://www.sportairrace.org/

[DaV8or]

I would pick the E. It is lighter and has less wetted area. Since money is no object, a Lo Presti cowl and all the 231 mods can be made to it. Should be faster than a similarly equiped J but at greater expense. On the other hand, aerodynamics are a funny thing and maybe the longer fuselage helps the laminar flow along the fuselage. Still, gut says E.

[Jerry 5TJ]

If you make it fast enough, you will want to area rule the fuselage.  I don't think there are any standard mod kits for that, yet.

More seriously, look at the CAFE  Foundation; they spent a lot of careful research work improving the efficiency of a Mooney aircraft and most of that was drag reduction. 

see  www.cafefoundation.org/v2/aboutcafe_cafeboard.php  

 

[Capt_CrashN_Burn]

Quote: DaV8or

I would pick the E. It is lighter and has less wetted area. ... On the other hand, aerodynamics are a funny thing and maybe the longer fuselage helps the laminar flow along the fuselage. Still, gut says E.

[Capt_CrashN_Burn]

Quote: jerry-N5911Q

If you make it fast enough, you will want to area rule the fuselage.  I don't think there are any standard mod kits for that, yet.

What is "area ruling a fuselage"??

 

More seriously, look at the CAFE  Foundation; they spent a lot of careful research work improving the efficiency of a Mooney aircraft and most of that was drag reduction. 

see  www.cafefoundation.org/v2/aboutcafe_cafeboard.php  

 

[Jerry 5TJ]

For information on area rule as applied to drag reduction for trans-sonic flight, have a look at

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4219/Chapter5.html

 

[Capt_CrashN_Burn]

Hmmm, 3 people voted "other" without saying what. :-[

[Capt_CrashN_Burn]

Quote: jerry-N5911Q

For information on area rule as applied to drag reduction for trans-sonic flight, have a look at

http://history.nasa.gov/SP-4219/Chapter5.html

 

[Capt_CrashN_Burn]

Bump!

 

[Capt_CrashN_Burn]

Looking at the Sport Air Racing League's speed records, I was sickened to find that the records for FAC1RG and FAC2RG were both held by Bonanza V35's!!!

 

What can we do to take back those records peoplez??

[scottfromiowa]

Burn,

I'm NOT EXPERT, but I do shoot and re-load rifle, pistol, shotgun...Weight in a bullet ='s faster velocity?  I.E. more is faster?...(your previous post) I think you need to back this up as I do re-load and have different caliber's as I sometimes want fast...small bullet like .223 and I some times want big (knock-down)/foot pounds of energy.  Mass/bullet weight ='s energy.  Velocity comes from small rounds.  The grain weight in a bullet can certainly be sped up by pushing it with a bunch of powder...bigger case, but it is easier to accelerate to high velocity with a smaller starting weight (bullet weight).  Coy Jacobs cleaned up an M20E with lots of speed mods and a custom cowl and it kicked the crap out of a stock 201.  The plane had the same engine, more mods, but was LIGHTER than the J.  It won.  A longer body definitely smooths out turbulence, but it is NOT faster because of the long body, but because of the mods that more than compensate for the weight gain with the length.  Mod out an E with a Lo-Presti cowl.  Get a strong engine and you will whip a J in climb, cruise...whatever. 

[scottfromiowa]

P.S.  I'd BUMP THAT...

[scottfromiowa]

.223 muzzle velocity=3500

.50 cal muzzle velocity=3050 (with armor piercing)

How fast would a .223 .55 grain bullet go if pushed by a .50 cal case? 

Answer=Acme rocket fast...

[scottfromiowa]

I know you said more aerodynamic, but I wanted to have fun...Kind of like poking someone with a riding crop...

[Ashe]

Scott,

The point you raise about the modded E has me wondering about an older post of mine where I was asking about Vne/Vno of the 1960's short bodies  (though I suppose in a racing environment, no one really cares about placarded speeds).  While at this point I have no doubt that the E presents the highest speed potential, wouldn't the E have well exceeded Vne pulling away from a J that is maybe only just entering it's yellow arc?

Quote: scottfromiowa

....  Coy Jacobs cleaned up an M20E with lots of speed mods and a custom cowl and it kicked the crap out of a stock 201.  The plane had the same engine, more mods, but was LIGHTER than the J.  It won.  A longer body definitely smooths out turbulence, but it is NOT faster because of the long body, but because of the mods that more than compensate for the weight gain with the length.  Mod out an E with a Lo-Presti cowl.  Get a strong engine and you will whip a J in climb, cruise...whatever....

[Ron McBride]

As a thought my F only weighs about 1680#'s. I would bet that is comparible to many E's. I have a 69 F with a 200 MPH VNE.

Ron

[Jeff_S]

All you "E" proponents had better get busy, then, as I notice that the current Absolute Speed record holder for our category of plane is currently a J.

J's rock!

http://www.sportairrace.org/id78.html

[carusoam]

Texoma 100, 2008	4/19/2008	FAC1RG-T	Mooney Accclaim		Patrick Rydzewski	187.27	215.55
Texoma 100, 2009	5/30/2009	FAC3RG	Mooney M20J		Ali Mutlu	159.32	183.34
							181.33
Grace Flight 2008	10/4/2008	FAC4RG	Mooney M20C		Henry Punzi	157.57

From the data supplied by Jeff...  Looks like the longbody is a bit faster than the medium or the short.  Interesting that the M20C is only 2kts off from the M20J. 

Forgive me for asking.  Does this proposed race include acceleration?  Yes, the lighter bullet accelarates quicker to a higher speed.  I am thinking from a "flying start" on a straight course weight will be less important than power and wetted cross sectional area (friction related drag)

(Turbo + fuel injection + more displacement) / (CSA + laminar wing) = Fast

more power, less friction, .....  lower weight would be good too.

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Hank]

Gee, the Acclaim's got 90 extra horses plus a turbo--he'd better be faster! I'm surprised, though, that it's only 30 knots faster than the C. Mine doesn't usually run quite as fast as Henry's, though.

What are the two columns of numbers? Presumably speeds, but what/how?

AND, at least the FAI puts the fuel-injected planes in a different category from us'n's with carbs. There may be hope yet.

[carusoam]

first number is kts the other is mph.

If value = speed / price, then M20C is a sure winner on the value scale.

On the other hand some M20Rs can achieve the speeds demonstrated by this particular Acclaim.   There must have been an altitude restriction or the M20TN driver was sand bagging????

-a-

[Capt_CrashN_Burn]

Quote: carusoam

first number is kts the other is mph.

If value = speed / price, then M20C is a sure winner on the value scale.

On the other hand some M20Rs can achieve the speeds demonstrated by this particular Acclaim.   There must have been an altitude restriction or the M20TN driver was sand bagging????

-a-

[scottfromiowa]

The long bodies were NOT included in the survey...or the K's/231's.  I stick by my assessment that if an E is modded and has a Lo-Proesti cowl it will be faster than a J in level flight.  My E has a VNE of 200knots.  No E or J is going to achieve this in level flight...yes if there is a tailwind it can be achieved as ground speed or in a dive with NO PROBLEM...

How could an F model be lighter than an E?  You have more sheet metal.  Not getting that post. 

J's DO RULE...over un-modded E's.  I have never raced a J.  I'd like to do that some time to see the TRUE difference between a J and my E with mod's I have at same altitude...same power setting and leaning...and fuel on board.

[Ron McBride]

They have claimed that an F only has about 10 to 15#'s of sheet metal over an E.  I just double checked my empty weight. It is: 1682.35 #'s.  And yes my gross is 2740#'s.  So at gross I am heavier, but I don't have to be.  At my local airport, we had a short field takeoff and landing contest. My weight was approx. 2080#.   My wife heard several comments, "That" was a Mooney. I was off the ground and stopped in about 500 feet.

Scott, What is your empty weight?

Scott, reread your POH. According to the Data that I have, a 66E has a VNE of 189 MPH.  the newest E's only have a VNE of 200 MPH.

Ron

[scottfromiowa]

You're right Ron.  My error on the VNE.  Duh, as I have dual computer screens and my work screen has a photo of my panel in the background.  I personally never exceed 180 knots (indicated), but should have known this number from memory...I will now.  My weight and balance is in my aircraft (in for annual) I will check on my empty weight and get back with you.  Wouln't the tubing alone for roll cage weigh more than 9 pounds?  I'm surprised that there would be such a small weight difference between the E&F.  Good stuff.

[Capt_CrashN_Burn]

Quote: scottfromiowa

Burn,

I'm NOT EXPERT, but I do shoot and re-load rifle, pistol, shotgun...Weight in a bullet ='s faster velocity?  I.E. more is faster?...(your previous post) I think you need to back this up as I do re-load and have different caliber's as I sometimes want fast...small bullet like .223 and I some times want big (knock-down)/foot pounds of energy.  Mass/bullet weight ='s energy.  Velocity comes from small rounds.  The grain weight in a bullet can certainly be sped up by pushing it with a bunch of powder...bigger case, but it is easier to accelerate to high velocity with a smaller starting weight (bullet weight).  Coy Jacobs cleaned up an M20E with lots of speed mods and a custom cowl and it kicked the crap out of a stock 201.  The plane had the same engine, more mods, but was LIGHTER than the J.  It won.  A longer body definitely smooths out turbulence, but it is NOT faster because of the long body, but because of the mods that more than compensate for the weight gain with the length.  Mod out an E with a Lo-Presti cowl.  Get a strong engine and you will whip a J in climb, cruise...whatever.