Mooney down with fatalities

[gsxrpilot]

Out doing some work with a CFI last week we ran through this scenario a few times. The first go-around was unexpected by me and I was full flaps and full up trim, and had just touched the gear on the runway when he called for the go-around.  

Full power/Hard right peddle/Hard push on the yoke all simultaneously
With the right hand free after pushing the throttle to full, immediately moved to trim to take the nose up trim out.
Now without the need for heavy pressure on the yoke, I gently retracted flaps to about the take-off position... and then full flap retraction.

Finally with the airplane smoothly climbing and easily out of any danger, I slowed back to 80mph and swung the J-bar to raise the gear.

All in all, a non-event and not one that really takes any thought.  

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, daver328 said:

Full power (right rudder / forward pressure on yoke) Positive rate (established) gear up. Never seemed to be a problem? I must admit I am a rookie in a Mooney ... but the gear comes up pretty quick ... 

I suppose I raise the gear fast enough to satisfy a pit crew chief but I still don't want to be holding forward pressure on the yoke while swing the JBar back and down. 

And remember, Vfe is lower than Vy for our birds. ISTM the flaps need to get to PO position before the gear. And retracting partial flaps is not something to be doing with hydraulic flap during a balked landing. IMO

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, gsxrpilot said:

Out doing some work with a CFI last week we ran through this scenario a few times. The first go-around was unexpected by me and I was full flaps and full up trim, and had just touched the gear on the runway when he called for the go-around.  

Full power/Hard right peddle/Hard push on the yoke all simultaneously
With the right hand free after pushing the throttle to full, immediately moved to trim to take the nose up trim out.
Now without the need for heavy pressure on the yoke, I gently retracted flaps to about the take-off position... and then full flap retraction.

Finally with the airplane smoothly climbing and easily out of any danger, I slowed back to 80mph and swung the J-bar to raise the gear.

All in all, a non-event and not one that really takes any thought.  

Yup. Just like that. I did the same thing with Mike Elliott last fall at Mooney Summit.

[Bob_Belville]

3 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

I agree Don.  Mine wont climb for anything with the gear down.  Adding power on a go around with gear and full flaps makes the nose pitch up, so i always push and push, ie push in the throttle and push the yoke, then when i have airspeed, ie 75-80 knots, the gear comes up, continue accelerate amd climb gently away.  300 feet flaps up (fwaps at fwee), then at 500 power back to 25/25 for noise. (25 at 5)

The Aircraft will climb perfectly happily on full flaps. Albeit slowly.  

If you are aborting on an airfield with a mountain off the end of the runway think DAMN hard as you come down the approach of where you exit is.  

Andrew 

I don't find your experience to be true for my experience with Es. @ 80-85 kias, a Mooney should climb better with the gear out than with full flaps deployed. Of course on your J you don't have to choose, you can cycle the gear switch and be doing other stuff with your right arm while that little motor is raising the gear.  

[Guest]

In reading this I'm getting the feeling that in a go around the plane is on the verge of being out of control.   Shouldn't one be anticipating the possibility?

I never found them to be to difficult in any of the planes I've flown.

Clarence

[N9453V]

1 hour ago, Bob_Belville said:

I don't find your experience to be true for my experience with Es. @ 80-85 kias, a Mooney should climb better with the gear out than with full flaps deployed. Of course on your J you don't have to choose, you can cycle the gear switch and be doing other stuff with your right arm while that little motor is raising the gear.  

That's my experience as well with every Mooney I've flown. Full flaps creates substantially more drag than the gear. On a go around, I'd always go flaps to takeoff before raising the gear. Also, there's the risk the airplane could settle back down on the runway, so I've never seen a POH recommend raising the gear before bringing the flaps to takeoff.

-Andrew

[FloridaMan]

These threads always end up being a pissing contest about what you should do in situation X, usually diverting away from what actually happened. AoA vs IAS, 9mm vs .45, et cetera. Here I go taking the bait and getting on my high horse. I have been there on takeoff near max gross on a hot day climbing through 200 ft and have my engine get quiet. Luck and fortune were on my side that day. The runway that the wind favored was closed so I was given a longer cross-wind runway. I declined the intersection departure and went full-length. I accelerated and climbed at Vy. The engine got quiet, I did not have enough runway to land on, but there was a field at the end. I can tell you that through the entire sequence I was acutely aware of my airspeed and my biggest challenge was to slow down. Perhaps if I had climbed at Vx the FOD that took out the #4 cylinder would've arrived sooner and I would've made the runway straight ahead, but my thought process was that the gusty crosswinds combined with my engine out planning had me concerned that I was get behind the airplane in the seconds it took to identify a failure and at Vx, I would have a dangerously high sink ratem so I accelerate to Vy in ground effect before starting my climb. I went from 200ft and 120mph to stopped in less than 4000ft. I believe that for at least 3000 ft I was in the air. At just over the ground at 90 mph, I said, "fuck it, I've got to slow down" and I forced the airplane into the weeds, bounced, became airborne several times as the terraced field dropped off beneath me, but we walked away and the airplane sustained no damage. I had hoped to never have such an incident, but I trained and planned for it, and a combination of luck, planning and good decisions saved our lives and the airplane. I have a mental checklist similar to GUMPs when turning onto the runway. I call it the "Three 3s: Trim, Flaps, Fuel Selector; Switches on, Transponder, Frequencies; Prop, Mixture, Throttle" and on the roll, I call out "Airspeed's alive, instruments are in the green, windsock." On landing, I always crosscheck airspeed, GPS groundspeed and make a mental note of windsock and reported winds to make sure the spread seems normal. 

Edited June 13, 2016 by Antares

[N5756v]

Now I am thinking maybe I need some more training . You guys have sure put some doubts in this new pilots head

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[Andy95W]

3 minutes ago, M20Doc said:

In reading this I'm getting the feeling that in a go around the plane is on the verge of being out of control.   Shouldn't one be anticipating the possibility?

I never found them to be to difficult in any of the planes I've flown.

Clarence

I'm with Clarence.

Isn't it really just flying the airplane, rather than trying to perform some scripted step-by-step maneuver?

[Robert C.]

3 hours ago, 201er said:

What does it have to do with flaps? Are you talking about the momentary loss of lift? Since the flaps are electric, it takes a little time for them to retract so you can counteract that with a matching pitch adjustment.

Depends on your model.

In an Ovation, and therefore I assume an Acclaim as well, the upward pitch momentum is quite an eye opener. First time i did a zero-to-full-power go around and flipped the flaps switch to T/O I said "oh shit" and grabbed the yoke with both hands to push. Thank goodness for electric trim as I'm not sure it would have been smart to push with one hand while the other drove a trim wheel.

I now follow Don's technique  Bob_B and gsrxpilot list similar procedure earlier in the thread.

[Bob_Belville]

8 minutes ago, N1395W said:

I'm with Clarence.

Isn't it really just flying the airplane, rather than trying to perform some scripted step-by-step maneuver?

Sure. Easy peasy. No need to think about, just do what feels right. Hey Clem, watch this! 

[Guest]

5 minutes ago, Bob_Belville said:

Sure. Easy peasy. No need to think about, just do what feels right. Hey Clem, watch this! 

With all due respect, it's not that difficult.

Clarence

[donkaye]

22 minutes ago, Robert C. said:

Depends on your model.

In an Ovation, and therefore I assume an Acclaim as well, the upward pitch momentum is quite an eye opener. First time i did a zero-to-full-power go around and flipped the flaps switch to T/O I said "oh shit" and grabbed the yoke with both hands to push. Thank goodness for electric trim as I'm not sure it would have been smart to push with one hand while the other drove a trim wheel.

I now follow Don's technique  Bob_B and gsrxpilot list similar procedure earlier in the thread.

The pitch up moment with full flap retraction is not nearly as significant on the Mooney models before the K Model.  From the K Model on up it does become fairly significant.  My suggestions are just that, suggestions, from flying all the Mooney models.  I try to teach the methods I have found produce the least amount of work for the desired results.  A number of aircraft have been lost from the left turning tendency and significant pitch up moment on flap retraction so that I have chosen the method discussed to mitigate those issues.  They've worked for all my students.  However, you know your airplanes well, so use whatever method works for you.

I've attached the short field procedure from the A model POH, highlighting the critical steps.  It was actually from this procedure written up by Bill Wheat that I changed the way I taught the go around.

 

M20A .pdf

[Bob_Belville]

Just now, M20Doc said:

With all due respect, it's not that difficult.

Clarence

Clarence, I agree but I will bet that when Donald K. gets back on this thread he will caution that he spends time making sure his transitioning clients feel what happens when you pour the coals to the higher HP models. I have a few hours in a PA24-400. I don't think I flew it on go around like I did a PA28-140.

[82Mike]

As a CFI I teach my students very simple stuff to start with.  800 minimum before attempting a return to field.  Never more than 30 bank on turns in the pattern, and always outside in the pattern.  If you do these three things you will have an AOA and airspeed that is above 1.4 let alone 1.3.  Young pilots (in my opinion) simply need to think forward not return to the field until they basically turn downwind which in most planes (172, Cherokee, Mooneys) is about 800 feet AGL.  It is really easy to teach in Marco Island as we are 6 foot MSL 

[BradB]

3 hours ago, Robert C. said:

Depends on your model.

In an Ovation, and therefore I assume an Acclaim as well, the upward pitch momentum is quite an eye opener. First time i did a zero-to-full-power go around and flipped the flaps switch to T/O I said "oh shit" and grabbed the yoke with both hands to push. Thank goodness for electric trim as I'm not sure it would have been smart to push with one hand while the other drove a trim wheel.

I now follow Don's technique  Bob_B and gsrxpilot list similar procedure earlier in the thread.

Same thing in the Acclaim.   My first go-around was practiced 3000 agl.   My CFI had me approach to an altitude as if it were the runway and just before stall, go full power for the go around.   I'll never forget that pitch up.  I remember grabbing the yoke with both hands and pushing, like Robert.  Then the more pushing as flaps were reduced to take-off.   The trim doesn't move fast enough to account for the quick changes in power and flaps.  

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, Bob_Belville said:

Clarence, I agree but I will bet that when Donald K. gets back on this thread he will caution that he spends time making sure his transitioning clients feel what happens when you pour the coals to the higher HP models. I have a few hours in a PA24-400. I don't think I flew it on go around like I did a PA28-140.

Point taken, Bob.  310 hp is different from 180/200 hp, let alone 400 hp.  But I will still maintain it is basic airmanship: add power, establish a climb, clean up the airplane.

EDIT:

based upon BradB's post above, I will steer clear of discussing go arounds in the M20M and higher.

Edited June 14, 2016 by N1395W

[Piloto]

24 minutes ago, daver328 said:

Had to do a go-around week before last at Hobby, had to do one the week before that at Reagan (not good to land with a plane on the runway) ...

Both jets I have flown for work the past few employers have a pronounced upward pitch when performing go-arounds. There's a whole lot of thrust being applied ...  Maybe it wasn't natural for me twenty years ago? ... but it sure is now - that is - to apply forward force of the yoke when applying go-around power. 

Never missed a beat, from the first Mooney go-around (unannounced beforehand, far into the flare, with the CFI right after we bought the Mooney) to now.

Power, Pitch, Gear, Flaps ... (yawn)

It's normal to apply forward force on the yoke when going around. 

When performing go-arounds I push trim down on the yoke switch at the same time power is increased. This keeps the nose from pitching up.

José

[bradp]

9 hours ago, donkaye said:

I disagree with the POHs of many Mooney models regarding the go around procedure, and feel they should change it.  Instead of power up, flaps to T/O position, trim down, gear up, balance of flaps up, it should be Power up, trim down, GEAR UP, flaps to T/O when little upward pressure on the yoke, at Vx or Vy balance of flaps up.  I say this because the drag of the gear is comparable to the drag of full flaps.  Putting up the gear first while trimming down takes the pressure off the yoke and makes for a more stable and SAFE go around.

Agree that the principle of unloading the wing should be drilled into every pilots head on a turn from base to final.  I tried this recently in a very controlled setting (empty airport and pretty calm winds), lightly loaded, flying at 1.2 Vso for weight - about 80 mph.   ~30 or so base to final turn but I purposefully pushed the nose down about -6 degrees so I felt my seat get light, saw a slight acceleration and knew my AOA was well below stall.   It was less speed than I was used to turning at by 10 mph but with a built in safety margin.   

Regarding Don's recommendation above, I have the same conclusion but a different reason for pulling the gear up first in a Mooney.  Other planes I've flown have had a noticeable nose up moment with flaps down and the opposite with flaps up.  Mooney is different.  When pulling the flaps in, we get a nose up moment that would have to be trimmed off.  That's one more thing I'd prefer not to do when I already am needing to counter significant pitch up forces.  

In reality a go around in a plane with electric gear and trim is going to be power up, pitch will go up with power, trim will be engaged and running during this entire process.  Given my plane climbs better in flaps TO than with landing flaps, I'd get the flaps in sooner only if I needed additional climb performance but with the mindset that the trim will still have to be running. 

Even though the crossover between large jet transport category aircraft and our Moonies is limited, this was the best aerodynamics lecture I've watched.  

 

[Hank]

Go arounds are really pretty simple:  feed in the power and rudder, push the yoke for desired airspeed (initially Vx), when seeing positive climb rate raise the gear. Hold Vx until a couple hundred feet up while rolling trim wheel forward and milking out flaps (move the right hand from one to the other, alternating until flaps are Up), pitch for Vy or desired climb speed, trim like a normal takeoff.

This works for me with electric gear, electric flaps with a push-to-move switch and manual trim wheel. It should be practiced from time to time if you haven't done one in the not-too-distant past. As a maneuver drilled into pre-solo Student Pilots, we should still be able to do them ourselves. I have video of a go around on my Solo, my wife called it a photo pass.   Every now and then, something will sneak up on me and I'll do another one even now; there's no shame in breaking off a bad approach and starting over with a good one (or at least a better one).

[MB65E]

2 hours ago, bradp said:

Agree that the principle of unloading the wing should be drilled into every pilots head on a turn from base to final.  I tried this recently in a very controlled setting (empty airport and pretty calm winds), lightly loaded, flying at 1.2 Vso for weight - about 80 mph.   ~30 or so base to final turn but I purposefully pushed the nose down about -6 degrees so I felt my seat get light, saw a slight acceleration and knew my AOA was well below stall.   It was less speed than I was used to turning at by 10 mph but with a built in safety margin.   

Regarding Don's recommendation above, I have the same conclusion but a different reason for pulling the gear up first in a Mooney.  Other planes I've flown have had a noticeable nose up moment with flaps down and the opposite with flaps up.  Mooney is different.  When pulling the flaps in, we get a nose up moment that would have to be trimmed off.  That's one more thing I'd prefer not to do when I already am needing to counter significant pitch up forces.  

In reality a go around in a plane with electric gear and trim is going to be power up, pitch will go up with power, trim will be engaged and running during this entire process.  Given my plane climbs better in flaps TO than with landing flaps, I'd get the flaps in sooner only if I needed additional climb performance but with the mindset that the trim will still have to be running. 

Even though the crossover between large jet transport category aircraft and our Moonies is limited, this was the best aerodynamics lecture I've watched.  

 

That was a great video!  I liked the lift vector sticks! Neat nose up recovery explanation. Rolling from upright into the horizon and taking the lift vector away vs pushing over the top the long way. 

Thanks for posting!

-Matt

[Andy95W]

59 minutes ago, Hyett6420 said:

But flying the aeroplane is doing a scripted step by step manoeuvre surely?   Put the throttle in, apply right rudder, track the runway, check airspeed, gently pull back at 55-60, pull off at 65 etc.  All scripted stuff.  Airlines fly by the numbers, if you do such and such at such a point such will happen. Airlines have a VERY good safety record, so IMHO if we follow the airlines mantra then in theory our safety recrod will improve as well.    

Yes, I see your point, but I'm talking more about the difference between procedures and airmanship.  The airline I work for, and have worked for in the past, have complex procedures that go into the decision making process.  Those procedures are also very important because they dictate how the crew divide duties and communicate during those maneuvers.

"Tracking the centerline" and "apply rudder" is the good airmanship involved in flying the airplane, and I wouldn't think that would normally be included in a checklist or procedure.  

But I'm staying out of the discussion because I realize not everyone flies in such an extremely structured environment.  I also definitely agree that having a procedure to review and visualize can be very helpful for those maneuvers we don't perform regularly- and I read some of the posts regarding go-arounds in the 300 hp Mooneys that sound like they could be a handful.

[Bob_Belville]

12 hours ago, daver328 said:

Power, Pitch, Gear, Flaps ... (yawn)

It's normal to apply forward force on the yoke when going around. 

Dave, pitch to neutral elevator force before gear/flaps. At a target speed? The gear position doesn't affect pitch much does it?

[Mooneymite]

After many years of simulator training in various aircraft, I would make some "general observations" about the go around maneuver:

1.  The greatest/most common mistake made is rushing through the intitial steps of the procedure.

2.  Unless you're about to hit something, there is no reason to jam the power on.  You're just making control problems for yourself.

3.  Once you have the power in and have pitched to the appropriate speed, whether you get the gear up, flaps to half, flaps all the way up, forget the gear, or forget the gear and the flaps....whatever, probably isn't going to affect the ultimate outcome.  Losing control of the aircraft because you jam the power in and can't keep up with rudder and elevator probably will!

 If you're doing a single engine miss in a heavy twin in Aspen, yes!  Your procedures better be letter perfect, or you'll be having a granite sandwich.  In a Mooney at the average general aviation airport....just make sure you get the power in and pitch to airspeed.  Do all that other stuff in a slow, deliberate fashion, but fly the airplane!

4.  Doing approaches with partial flaps makes a go around much easier for a bunch of different reasons.

5.  Add power, adjust pitch, manage drag....

 

Edited June 14, 2016 by Mooneymite
typo

[mike_elliott]

18 minutes ago, N1395W said:

I read some of the posts regarding go-arounds in the 300 hp Mooneys that sound like they could be a handful.

They have enough grunt they make short work of it, but one is advised to be in decent physical shape, especially with right leg strength, and aware of what is about to happen.