1959 M20A realistic purchase and maint.

[BRGCooper]

Hi, I'm a new member and am interested in a very clean well cared for '59. I'm in CA near Oakland. The plane is Canadian and seems well cared for and the wood wings rebuilt in 2008 and good as new with no issues since. Always hangared and cared for. 

Everone around that I've talked to says I don't want a wood wing. Seems like those who own one love it. How do others keep them flying. What's involved?

Edited May 19, 2016 by BRGCooper

[Hank]

There are some wood wing owners here. Look for Dave, N1960A. He should have lots of advice. Seems like he has a website, too.

[HRM]

38 minutes ago, Hank said:

There are some wood wing owners here. Look for Dave, N1960A. He should have lots of advice. Seems like he has a website, too.

Ditto Dave Morris. Seek him out here.

Not to scare you, but he is as fanatical about A-models as I am about Super 21s.

[Yetti]

Wood as a building component has better qualities than alum. Better dampening, I would think the wood wings are stronger than alum.  I think the problems arise when trying to find quality replacement wood.  Think wood baseball bats vs. alum.

[N601RX]

I think the tail was the problem area with the wood wing models.  I think most of the tails were swapped for aluminum.

[HRM]

Just now, N601RX said:

I think the tail was the problem area with the wood wing models.  I think most of the tails were swapped for aluminum.

I believe that the FAA banned wood-tail Mooneys in the US; i.e., AD requiring fitment of the metal tail. There is, AFAIK, a wood tail flying in Germany.

[HRM]

The woodwings make an argument that the surface is smoother, hence slicker, than AL, because there are no rivets or waviness. There is also a different flexing dynamic.

Al Mooney's brother was a master carpenter and was pressed into service by Al to make wings for him. The structures are truly a work of Art 

Then there's this:

For equal horsepower, the wood wing airplanes were faster than the metal ones. And not just a little bit – we measured a speed loss of 5-8 mph when we converted the wood wing M20A to the metal wing M20B--Bill Wheat, 42-year engineering veteran of Mooney Aircraft in MAPA Log, March, 2000.

[DXB]

Here's a link to a nice Bill Wheat interview article on the wood wing.  Seems like the expertise to inspect and maintain these rare works of art has itself grown rare - the skills didn't get passed down.  3 places qualified to do it are listed in the article, but I'm not sure how old the article is.  

http://www.mooneypilots.com/mapalog/woodwing.html

 

[HRM]

14 minutes ago, DXB said:

 3 places qualified to do it are listed in the article, but I'm not sure how old the article is.  

B&D Aircraft is Boyd Maddox's place at KAXH and it is still going strong. Worth a trip out there just to see the uncovered Mite wing he has hanging on the wall.

[carusoam]

Somebody has posted detailed photos of a wood wing Mooney around here in the last few years.

Wood is nature's finest composite material. One of the challenges to the tail strength issue were the adhesives used back in the day.

The requirement of being a wood wing Mooney owner is you really want a wood wing.  Similar to people having wooden boats.

It is similar to driving a model T.  It works.  It's a piece of art.  It is a piece of history.

Water and wood don't mix together very well.  Worse than aluminum and water...

If you know something about wood, you have a wood shop in your basement, and like wood wings,. Go for it!

Getting a PPI on a wood wing plane has got to be a challenge.  Know how you are going to maintain the wood each time something comes up is important.

Don't buy it because it has a low purchase price...

Best regards,

-a-

[mike20papa]

I fly a '59 A model, N8335E. If you own a wood wing you don't have to worry with tank reseals as the fuel tanks are removable/repairable.  But, at every annual, you are required to remove the aft tank under the back seat in the fuselage.  Not an easy job, but you or your A&P can get the hang of it.  Insurance is found through select groups, only.  Don't even try with AVEMCO or equal.  I use Sharpe Aviation Insurance (Pam Sharpe) and the premium is around $800 a year.   I haven't flown another Mooney, but the A model performs very well and is economical as hell.  I can cruise around down low at 6.5g/hr at 120mph IAS or climb up and it'll true out at 155mph at about 7.5 g/hr. @ 2400rpm/20in.  At under 12lbs/ft wing loading, it handles well and I feel comfortable slipping it, flying "unusual attitudes", in/out of shortgrass strips, it has a lot of great attributes.

[kerry]

I'm on my 3rd wood wing Mooney.  I'm biased when it comes to aircraft materials.  I also have a wood wing experimental.  Wood and fabric is outstanding.  Easy to work with and repair.  My advice is if your interested in a wood wing Mooney then find the right people who can help with maintenance and can teach you about wood and fabric.  Join EAA and find those that maintain and fly tube and fabric aircraft.  If the wing and aircraft is as good as you say it is then I wouldn't hesitate at all in getting it.  

 

[mike20papa]

Yes, I'm the same when it comes to wooden aircraft structures.  I went looking for an A model, only to find later that the "experts" looked down their nose at them.  Here's a photo of the Piel CP328 wing I built.

[MB65E]

Really pretty! I have always liked those piel airplanes. I'd love to build/rebuild a Cap 10 or something similar.

I really preferred the wood wing Super Decathlon vs the metal wing ones. If that helps with your decision making process.

-Matt

[Guest]

The troubles with wood primary structure and the associated AD's on M18 and M20 is water entry to the structure causing break down of the glues and decay of the wood.

Clarence

Here is the AD on wooden structures 

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgad.nsf/0/33BA96B4A3AD098A86256A57006692E3?OpenDocument

Edited May 20, 2016 by M20Doc

[HRM]

2 hours ago, M20Doc said:

The troubles with wood primary structure...

 

Don't forget the termites!

[kerry]

5 hours ago, M20Doc said:

The troubles with wood primary structure and the associated AD's on M18 and M20 is water entry to the structure causing break down of the glues and decay of the wood.

Clarence

Here is the AD on wooden structures 

http://www.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgad.nsf/0/33BA96B4A3AD098A86256A57006692E3?OpenDocument

Your right.  It happens to wood wing Mooneys that sit outside.  They need to be in a hangar.  My wing has the original glue joints from 1959 and they look as good as new.  My glue joints under the wing walk area did come apart but it only took basic wood working skills to repair it.  I had a previous M20A where the flap brackets delaminated from the rear spar but it also wasn't difficult to repair.  He mentioned the wing was rebuilt in 2008.  My guess would be it had localized repairs and recovered.  That Mooney wing is a stout structure and today's glues and cover materials are much better.  When I got interested in M20A's I reviewed all NTSB database I could only find 3 failures of the Mooney wood wing.  Two happened from thunderstorms and one happened from a dry rot spar that was repaired incorrectly with metal straps.  I would say that's not a bad record from aircraft flying since 1956.  I will admit there have been many M20A inflight break ups do to the wood tail but the wood wing still holds strong.

[Guest]

11 hours ago, HRM said:

 

Don't forget the termites!

Termites are fine in wooden airplanes, they just have to hold hands during the flight.

Clarence

[BRGCooper]

Hi Thanks for all the great replies. The plane does not have a wood tail, it was replaced of course to deal with the AD. It has no damage history and all logs with pretty low time of 2800 hrs. Always hangared and of course I will hangar it here in CA where we have a nice arid mild climate. I fly vintage planes and would fly and use it as such. Nice weather x-coutries and sunday flights. I am excited to have a wood wing Mooney and the extra care it may need. 

Edited May 22, 2016 by BRGCooper

[carusoam]

It is really cool when your Mooney finds you. 

Best regards,

-a-

[M20F]

If you know what you are doing, have a great A&P who knows wood, and want to be a cultist than a wood wing Mooney is the way to go.  For 99.9% of people though you would be better served with a newer model.  You really need to know what exactly you are getting yourself into in terms of cost and other issues when you buy what is truly a vintage plane. 

[rbridges]

On May 19, 2016 at 10:21 AM, HRM said:

 

Then there's this:

For equal horsepower, the wood wing airplanes were faster than the metal ones. And not just a little bit – we measured a speed loss of 5-8 mph when we converted the wood wing M20A to the metal wing M20B--Bill Wheat, 42-year engineering veteran of Mooney Aircraft in MAPA Log, March, 2000.

I remembered being surprised to hear how fast the wood wing planes were. 

[HRM]

10 hours ago, rbridges said:

I remembered being surprised to hear how fast the wood wing planes were. 

Same here, makes sense...but not enough for me to own one 

[outermarker]

I learned to fly in a wood wing Mooney, 150hp engine. As mentioned above, inspecting the wing is a bit more involved, i.e. read costly. I know where there is a wood wing Mooney in IL for sale.

[jetdriven]

On May 19, 2016 at 4:53 PM, mike20papa said:

I fly a '59 A model, N8335E. If you own a wood wing you don't have to worry with tank reseals as the fuel tanks are removable/repairable.  But, at every annual, you are required to remove the aft tank under the back seat in the fuselage.  Not an easy job, but you or your A&P can get the hang of it.  Insurance is found through select groups, only.  Don't even try with AVEMCO or equal.  I use Sharpe Aviation Insurance (Pam Sharpe) and the premium is around $800 a year.   I haven't flown another Mooney, but the A model performs very well and is economical as hell.  I can cruise around down low at 6.5g/hr at 120mph IAS or climb up and it'll true out at 155mph at about 7.5 g/hr. @ 2400rpm/20in.  At under 12lbs/ft wing loading, it handles well and I feel comfortable slipping it, flying "unusual attitudes", in/out of shortgrass strips, it has a lot of great attributes.

I've seen this plane in person at a grass strip and it is a beauty. It also took off far shorter and climbed better than my J which has 20 more HP.  

 

Hey M20P I still have that baggage door prop rod.