M20C Sat in Hangar for 10 years - Buy or Pass?

[glafaille]

Here are my thoughts with the green C model in Spring Branch-

1. No prop strike inspection per the Lycoming SB

2. The panel needs re-arranging $2000

3. The price is very high considering 1 & 2 above

4. I don't NEED GPS and don't want to pay for it.  Nice to have yes, but would rather have a solid engine.

5. Top prop and speed mods are certainly a GOOD thing.

6. 1964 and earlier have a different cowl, engine access is more difficult

7. Multiple cylinder replacements over past 5 years, about 1 per annual.  Why?

 

 

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, glafaille said:

Gentlemen-

 

I just received the following email from the seller:

Mr. LaFaille,

The owner does not want the plane to leave Lubbock for inspection. Please advise your intentions at this point, thank you.



Vice President/General Manager
Lubbock Aero

 

I'll certainly pass on this deal and keep looking.

Thanks to all for the comments.

You should make sure they have your phone number, and you should tell them, "When the owner gets serious about selling, give me a call."

When they call you 6 months from now, you can laugh and tell them about the nice Mooney you bought.

It's a buyers market.

[gsxrpilot]

10 minutes ago, glafaille said:

Here are my thoughts with the green C model in Spring Branch-

1. No prop strike inspection per the Lycoming SB

2. The panel needs re-arranging $2000

3. The price is very high considering 1 & 2 above

4. I don't NEED GPS and don't want to pay for it.  Nice to have yes, but would rather have a solid engine.

5. Top prop and speed mods are certainly a GOOD thing.

6. 1964 and earlier have a different cowl, engine access is more difficult

7. Multiple cylinder replacements over past 5 years, about 1 per annual.  Why?

All good points. 

1. Was it a gear up? Was the prop turning when it landed gear up? Or was it some other prop strike? There certainly should be more work involved in recovering from a gear up. That log page sounds like they just changed the oil :-0

2. Agreed...

3. Everyone's priorities are different and your priorities just don't align with this plane, but I think the price is fair.

4. I would have agreed with you prior to owning a Mooney. Now two years later, my WAAS GPS and the Stec30/altitude are the two most valuable bits in my panel. I wouldn't have a Mooney without them. Mooney's are made to go far and those two things together make it a MUCH more enjoyable plane to fly FAR.

5. Wish I had a Top Prop

6. It's a Mooney and engine access is difficult period. Want easy access, get a brand C, P or B.

7. That's either a good thing or bad thing... All the problems are gone now that all have been replaced, or there is a lurking problem that keeps picking off cylinders.

 

[glafaille]

What do you guys think of this one.

Went to see it last weekend.  I like it and am seriously considering tendering an offer, but it does have a few minor issues.  AD on prop hub, 22 year old overhaul, single nav/comm, SB 208B not done, dent on the right tip plate (minor), and the rudder trim tab is tweaked a fair bit to the left.  Something a bit off somewhere with the rigging, although Don Maxwell rigged it in 2010.

 On the other hand it went to Maxwell's for an annual in 2010 and has a nice working tracking autopilot with altitude hold, recent shock disks, nice paint, fair interior, VFR GPS, no visible corrosion, no visible fuel leaks and an attractive price.  It has flown regularly over the past few years.

Oh, yea.  Comes with a pair of Bose headsets and a Stratus 2.

 

[gsxrpilot]

I'd give Don Maxwell a call and ask him about the plane. He'll have all the notes and will be happy to talk about it. (if you haven't already done that)

It ticks a lot of boxes for me. The autopilot is excellent. You'll be shopping for a new GPS soon, and while you're at it, increase the useful load by removing the ADF. The prop hub AD will just be a nuisance. But other than that, the price is right.

[glafaille]

Already talked to Don.  The annual in 2010 was extensive.  Replaced all the shock disks and 1 cylinder in the engine, fixed multiple fuel leaks, seat track bearings, and a bunch of little stuff.  Almost an entire logbook page of typewritten items.

I have a few more questions for Don, waiting on a call.  Anyone know the cost to comply with SB 208B?

[rbridges]

the last plane looks good.  33k with an stec ap and gpss is nice.  twice the airframe hours, but the engine has been flown 8hrs/mo according to the ad.  If it checks out, I think it's a good candidate.  the stratus and bose headsets is also great to have in the deal.

do you know who did the reseal?

[steingar]

The last one is the best of the bunch.  The first was overpriced.  Not only that, but it has a 430 and nothing else, meaning if the 430 goes TU you got nothing.  I thought the second one was overpriced but only by the smallest amount.  Then again, I like bladders.  The one thing I'd want to know about the last one is who sealed the tanks.  If it was one of the more reputable shops, the aircraft is a value.  If it was done by the local mechanic it looks priced about right to me.

[bonal]

6 hours ago, Marauder said:

Who you kidding? You win the lottery, you'll be in that new TBM 900.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

I'd have to check out the TBM 900 forums cause I doubt they would hold a candle to Mooney Space and since I spend more time flying Mooney space than my Mooney that would be a factor. Lottery plane would also be a T28 the sound of that round motor is so invigorating. Hang in there you will find what you are looking for.

[gsxrpilot]

1 hour ago, steingar said:

The last one is the best of the bunch.  The first was overpriced.  Not only that, but it has a 430 and nothing else, meaning if the 430 goes TU you got nothing.  I thought the second one was overpriced but only by the smallest amount.  Then again, I like bladders.  The one thing I'd want to know about the last one is who sealed the tanks.  If it was one of the more reputable shops, the aircraft is a value.  If it was done by the local mechanic it looks priced about right to me.

Evidently DMax did the reseal. If Don gives the thumbs up on this one, I'd jump on it.

[glafaille]

It wasn't a total re-seal, it was a repair but it has held for 5 years now so maybe it will hold a while longer.  GSXRpilot, you are correct, Don Maxwell did the tank repair in 2010.

[Jerry 5TJ]

2 hours ago, bonal said:

I'd have to check out the TBM 900 forums cause I doubt they would hold a candle to Mooney Space and since I spend more time flying Mooney space than my Mooney that would be a factor. Lottery plane would also be a T28 the sound of that round motor is so invigorating. Hang in there you will find what you are looking for.

The TBM forum costs $350 per year to join.  It is moderated.  Fewer CBs in residence there. 

[kortopates]

Already talked to Don.  ... fixed multiple fuel leaks ...

 Anyone know the cost to comply with SB 208B?

Fixing leaks is a patch - not a reseal (for those that keep referring to the "reseal")

208B is only a couple hrs of labor - a true bargain compared to finding corrosion in the tubular structure after purchase.

Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[jetdriven]

20 hours ago, glafaille said:

What do you guys think of this one.

Went to see it last weekend.  I like it and am seriously considering tendering an offer, but it does have a few minor issues.  AD on prop hub, 22 year old overhaul, single nav/comm, SB 208B not done, dent on the right tip plate (minor), and the rudder trim tab is tweaked a fair bit to the left.  Something a bit off somewhere with the rigging, although Don Maxwell rigged it in 2010.

 On the other hand it went to Maxwell's for an annual in 2010 and has a nice working tracking autopilot with altitude hold, recent shock disks, nice paint, fair interior, VFR GPS, no visible corrosion, no visible fuel leaks and an attractive price.  It has flown regularly over the past few years.

Oh, yea.  Comes with a pair of Bose headsets and a Stratus 2.

 

That wingtip damage is not minor. That's a balanced control surface that's bent up along with the end rib. The aileron is around 3700$ new and by the time ifs all replaced and painted it's probably a 5 grand repair. 

[Shadrach]

22 hours ago, glafaille said:

Already talked to Don.  The annual in 2010 was extensive.  Replaced all the shock disks and 1 cylinder in the engine, fixed multiple fuel leaks, seat track bearings, and a bunch of little stuff.  Almost an entire logbook page of typewritten items.

I have a few more questions for Don, waiting on a call.  Anyone know the cost to comply with SB 208B?

Has anyone actually seen the roll cage tubes? The cost to complete 208B could range from $100s to totaling the airplane. Not having performed this SB shows either complete ignorance or complete dereliction of duty in my opinion. Short of pranging the airframe, this is the quickest route to a total loss. As soon as I got involved in the MX of our 20F I completed the SB, that was around 2006. Even though it had been hangared it's whole life, the paint on the cage was compromised and the surface starting to rust. The culprit is often a combination of fuel seeps that slowly breakdown the paint and or rodent urine (the factory insulation was perfect for rodent's nests. Had I not cleaned, painted and reinsulated everything when I did, my airplane would like ly have a very expensive repair hiding underneath the plastic.

[rbridges]

11 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

Has anyone actually seen the roll cage tubes? The cost to complete 208B could range from $100s to totaling the airplane. Not having performed this SB shows either complete ignorance or complete dereliction of duty in my opinion. Short of pranging the airframe, this is the quickest route to a total loss. As soon as I got involved in the MX of our 20F I completed the SB, that was around 2006. Even though it had been hangared it's whole life, the paint on the cage was compromised and the surface starting to rust. The culprit is often a combination of fuel seeps that slowly breakdown the paint and or rodent urine (the factory insulation was perfect for rodent's nests. Had I not cleaned, painted and reinsulated everything when I did, my airplane would like ly have a very expensive repair hiding underneath the plastic.

My plane had the SB done, and I recently posted pics of light corrosion on the passenger side.  I would definitely have the roll cage inspected closely on a mooney I was considering.

[kortopates]

Folks are making a big deal about the importance of complying with 208B; and rightly so. But it should be stressed that it means very little if at all that a plane has previously complied with it. That just means how ever many years ago it was corrosion free, but it could have begun corroding the day after the inspection due to window leak in a Mooney left outdoors. So its really most important to the savvy buyer as pre-buy inspection requirement and done in that context is not a big deal since the buyer just needs to get the inspection and will walk without concern of the consequences.

Its a whole different matter though to the owner of plane that was never inspected or hasn't been inspected in decades or especially if it might still have the water retaining insulation that was used for awhile many years ago.

Edited February 4, 2016 by kortopates

[Yetti]

Realizing of course the 1970s planes roll cage was painted with real epoxy paint and it should not be as big a concern.  For 60s planes yes a concern.

[Shadrach]

58 minutes ago, kortopates said:

Folks are making a big deal about the importance of complying with 208B; and rightly so. But it should be stressed that it means very little if at all that a plane has previously complied with it. That just means how ever many years ago it was corrosion free, but it could have begun corroding the day the inspection due to window leak in a Mooney left outdoors. So its really most important to the savvy buyer as pre-buy inspection requirement and done in that context is not a big deal since the buyer just needs to get the inspection and will walk without concern of the consequences.

Its a whole different matter though to the owner of plane that was never inspected or hasn't been inspected in decades or especially if it might still have the water retaining insulation that was used for awhile many years ago.

The SB is a big deal because it removes the type of insulation that holds moisture and or fuel seeps against the tubing. The old style insulation is also inviting for rodents to use as a nest. Your premise that it's just a snapshot in time is incorrect. Performing the SB may not ensure that the tubing never rusts, but it certainly improves the odds a great deal.  Since I performed the SB there has been zero deterioration of the paint on the tubes and there is has been no evidence of rodent nests (firm closed cell foam is not nearly as inviting as fiberglass).  BTW, none of the surface rust on mine is from leaky windows or from being outside. The windows on the early birds are glued in with a polysulfide polymer, my windows do not leak...at all.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Shadrach

[Shadrach]

2 minutes ago, Yetti said:

Realizing of course the 1970s planes roll cage was painted with real epoxy paint and it should not be as big a concern.  For 60s planes yes a concern.

Actually I've read that the later birds were more prone to rust. I don't think the epoxy paint was used until well into the 80s if not the 90s.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Shadrach

[Yetti]

And it is possible that mine was done with black paint.  It just seemed to look factory.  Built in late 1974.   Based on the SB, I would guess the factory painting started in 1976.

[Shadrach]

8 minutes ago, Yetti said:

And it is possible that mine was done with black paint.  It just seemed to look factory.  Built in late 1974.   Based on the SB, I would guess the factory painting started in 1976.

I assure you that mine looks factory as well, but it is not!

This is where I read about the newer airframes being more troublesome.

"Seemingly, pre-201 Mooney’s don’t get the corrosion as much since Mooney changed the way they installed the side glass. On the earlier models, the glass was held in by screws about every 1-1/2″, so water was not as likely to enter the tubes as when they switch to pressure plates to hold the glass in."

[kortopates]

51 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

The SB is a big deal because it removes the type of insulation that holds moisture and or fuel seeps against the tubing. The old style insulation is also inviting for rodents to use as a nest. Your premise that it's just a snapshot in time is incorrect. Performing the SB may not ensure that the tubing never rusts, but it certainly improves the odds a great deal.  Since I performed the SB there has been zero deterioration of the paint on the tubes and there is has been no evidence of rodent nests (firm closed cell foam is not nearly as inviting as fiberglass).  BTW, none of the surface rust on mine is from leaky windows or from being outside. The windows on the early birds are glued in with a polysulfide polymer, my windows do not leak...at all.

A couple points - although I agree its a very good practice to replace the old water retaining insulation and as I said above the older planes with it make this SB especially important - but having complied with this SB in the past does not mean as you imply that the insulation you are concerned with was actually replaced. The SB specifically states "fiberglass blankets may be THOROUGHLY dried out and reinstalled"; the new foam is only recommended - not required. Secondly, evidence of leaky windows seals is exactly what the SB calls out to look for during the inspection. I totally agree with you that getting the old fiberglass insulation replaced improved your odds of future corrosion, but no way does it eliminate the chance that it can't happen in the future. Note too as well, the SB calls out to be complied with annually,( although nobody does that), they certainly intended this to be a recurring inspection - not a one time look. I maintain the savvy buyer will want to perform the inspection during the pre-buy regardless of seeing earlier compliance; its too cheap of insurance too pass up.

Edited February 3, 2016 by kortopates

[kortopates]

26 minutes ago, Shadrach said:

I assure you that mine looks factory as well, but it is not!

This is where I read about the newer airframes being more troublesome.

"Seemingly, pre-201 Mooney’s don’t get the corrosion as much since Mooney changed the way they installed the side glass. On the earlier models, the glass was held in by screws about every 1-1/2″, so water was not as likely to enter the tubes as when they switch to pressure plates to hold the glass in."

Their point is that all of the Mooneys with flush mount windows are also susceptible to the water leakage issue coming in at the skin and this problem is not due to the original poor insulation of what I think was mostly pre-'76 Mooneys that plagued your '67 F (but I am not sure about the dates on the problematic insulation usage). Thus my '86 K flush mounted windows makes mine also at risk. Don't really know why the SB wasn't updated to specifically include the longbody's due to the flush mounted windows when the SB plainy says that all Mooneys with flush mounted windows are included.

Edited February 3, 2016 by kortopates

[Shadrach]

25 minutes ago, kortopates said:

A couple points - although I agree its a very good practice to replace the old water retaining insulation and as I said above the older planes with it make this SB especially important - but having complied with this SB in the past does not mean as you imply that the insulation you are concerned with was actually replaced. The SB specifically states "fiberglass blankets may be THOROUGHLY dried out and reinstalled"; the new foam is only recommended - not required. Secondly, evidence of leaky windows seals is exactly what the SB calls out to look for during the inspection. I totally agree with you that getting the old fiberglass insulation replaced improved your odds of future corrosion, but no way does it eliminate the chance that it can't happen in the future. Note too as well, the SB calls out to be complied with annually,( although nobody does that), they certainly intended for this to a recurring inspection - not a one time look. I maintain the savvy buyer will want to perform the inspection during the pre-buy regardless of seeing earlier compliance; its too cheap of insurance too pass up.

Have you ever performed the SB? I have been through 3 of them.  The fiberglass is never a blanket, It's typically a mess that has long since ceased to do anything other than collect in a moisture absorbing mass over the lower tubes. Some of it may be "dry-able" but I can't imagine anyone why anyone would ever reinstall that stuff.    

I think we agree that even if the SB was performed, I'm looking at the cage on any aircraft I am considering. No guarantees. Id likely skip over a non local bird thats never had it done.

Edited February 3, 2016 by Shadrach