PSA Paddle Bulbs

[N201MKTurbo]

Huh, Brighter bulbs were certainly available back in the sixties when our Mooney's were designed. The engineers decided on the brightness we have. If they thought we needed brighter lights they would have put them in.

[Guitarmaster]

33 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Huh, Brighter bulbs were certainly available back in the sixties when our Mooney's were designed. The engineers decided on the brightness we have. If they thought we needed brighter lights they would have put them in.

Maybe, but at what cost?  Making an incandescent brighter takes a lot of current and produces much heat.  Is it possible it just wasn't worth the trade-off?  I have yet to see a manufacturer go significantly beyond what is required by the FAA with regard to required equipment... unless it's cost effective for them.

During my first visit to KOSH, LED technology was just getting started.  The display (i can't remember the manufacturer) had a Kitfox outfitted with LED nav, strobes (3), and two landing lights.  All were illuminated with an ammeter attached.  The total current draw was ~6A.  This made it very feasible to outfit an experimental, with a tiny alternator, with a full compliment of exterior lighting.

I don't know about all GA airplanes, but all new airliners are coming from the factory with all LED lighting.  

IMHO, unless you are going for a show winner restoration to original, why not install modern technology in our vintage birds?  Isn't that what we do with avionics upgrades?  The old gyros work perfectly fine, but you won't find one in any modern airliner.  

[MB65E]

I like the technology, it's like giving yourself a raise by not changing landing lights. I wish the paddles were approved, but they are not yet. I just can't justify them yet. I also wished the modern LED strobes produced more of a strobe effect. They are more like a bright blinking light than a strobe light. I love the white single strobe lights that are on a -60 Blackhawk. They are smokin bright, single flash that really catches the eye. I have a old white single strobe on the mooney. It's super bright, but does ring in your ear via headsets. 

But, I like the PSA paddle products.

-Matt

[1964-M20E]

2 years ago at Sun N Fun I saw a brand new King air sitting out there for all the world to see.  What did it have incandescent bulbs.

 

You would think they would put LEDs on the new aircraft longer life, lower current brighter etc. JMHO

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Huh, Brighter bulbs were certainly available back in the sixties when our Mooney's were designed. The engineers decided on the brightness we have. If they thought we needed brighter lights they would have put them in.

Lighting on aircraft is not for decoration - it's for safety -  "see and be seen". I want the brightest lights I can have for landing in the dark and I want other airplanes to see me day and night.  With LED landing and taxi lights I leave them on all the time for recognition lights. The stock recognition lights that Mooney engineers had available to them in 2000 when my Mooney was built will melt the lens on the wingtip if you forget and leave them on - I never turn them on any more since I have four much better recognition lights - two LED taxi and two LED landing lights. I never would have done that with incandescent or I would have been changing bulbs monthly. They got very hot and used a lot of amps. In the case of lighting only listen to those people who have upgraded and get their opinions - anything else is rhetoric and theory.

[N201MKTurbo]

There is no question that LEDs use less current then incandescent bulbs. And there is no question that they have long life. LEDs have no natural failure mode, they fail from being shaken apart or disassembling themselves through thermal cycling. 

What I don't get is replacing a perfectly good nav light. I have found them to be extremely reliable, but everybody tells me they are tired of replacing landing lights, when I'm talking about nav lights. I just think some people just want more bling on their plane, just like women like jewlery! Instead of solving any real problem.

[N201MKTurbo]

Ok, if the stock nav lights are melting the plastic lenses, you have a good reason to change them out. Both of my Mooneys had glass lenses and never melted. 

I don't use my nav lights for recognition, that is what the strobes are for. The only thing the nav lights are good for is so another plane can tell which way you are going, after he sees the strobes.

[Shadrach]

3 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Huh, Brighter bulbs were certainly available back in the sixties when our Mooney's were designed. The engineers decided on the brightness we have. If they thought we needed brighter lights they would have put them in.

Did Peter steal your log in credentials?

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Ok, if the stock nav lights are melting the plastic lenses, you have a good reason to change them out. Both of my Mooneys had glass lenses and never melted. 

I don't use my nav lights for recognition, that is what the strobes are for. The only thing the nav lights are good for is so another plane can tell which way you are going, after he sees the strobes.

There are separate forward facing halogen recognition lights on the wingtips that melt the lens. The nav lights face the side.

This conversation has been going on a long time.

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/455-led-recognition-lights-are-you-interested/#comment-4429

Edited January 4, 2016 by LANCECASPER

[ArtVandelay]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said: Ok, if the stock nav lights are melting the plastic lenses, you have a good reason to change them out. Both of my Mooneys had glass lenses and never melted. 

I don't use my nav lights for recognition, that is what the strobes are for. The only thing the nav lights are good for is so another plane can tell which way you are going, after he sees the strobes.

There are separate forward facing halogen recognition lights on the wingtips that melt the lens. The nav lights face the side.

This conversation has been going on a long time.

http://mooneyspace.com/topic/455-led-recognition-lights-are-you-interested/#comment-4429

I fix that problem by wig waging the recognition lights.

[Shadrach]

I think that current draw and heat are compelling enough reasons.

[HRM]

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

There is no question that LEDs use less current then incandescent bulbs. And there is no question that they have long life. LEDs have no natural failure mode, they fail from being shaken apart or disassembling themselves through thermal cycling. 

What I don't get is replacing a perfectly good nav light. I have found them to be extremely reliable, but everybody tells me they are tired of replacing landing lights, when I'm talking about nav lights. I just think some people just want more bling on their plane, just like women like jewlery! Instead of solving any real problem.

I replace incandescents with LEDs as they fail. The HUGE thing here is the power budget. Dropping an order of magnitude in current draw is extremely important in an old AC with a single 12 VDC system (batt+alternator).

The only incandescents on my Benz are the xenon headlights and that car has lights under the front seats. The engine shuts off at stops and runs off a Li-ion secondary battery. It's uncanny how long that car will go without restarting. I get 28 MPG along with a 4.2s 0-60 acceleration. That's power management.

[rbridges]

On 1/3/2016 at 3:02 PM, kmyfm20s said:

Is a whale oil lantern out of the question or is that reserved for the 22nd century?:)

that would complement the FIKI system, too.

[DXB]

On 1/3/2016 at 10:55 AM, Guitarmaster said:

This is what came with the bulb.  They are not TSO, but they do satisfy the requirements.  Is the Grimes light TSO?  Just wondering.  I pulled an automotive bulb out of the tail. 
 

 

The actual benefits of these bulbs seem to far outweigh the risks.   Can anyone articulate a definitive basis for calling these bulbs NOT legal?   If it's just a grey area and seemingly defensible, I'd install in a heartbeat.   Per manufacturer, their  compliance with FAR section 23.183-23.191 requirements would get you pretty close?  I assume the incandescent it replaces isn't an aviation specific bulb.  

[Guitarmaster]

6 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

There is no question that LEDs use less current then incandescent bulbs. And there is no question that they have long life. LEDs have no natural failure mode, they fail from being shaken apart or disassembling themselves through thermal cycling. 

What I don't get is replacing a perfectly good nav light. I have found them to be extremely reliable, but everybody tells me they are tired of replacing landing lights, when I'm talking about nav lights. I just think some people just want more bling on their plane, just like women like jewlery! Instead of solving any real problem.

Bling is good...

 

[Guitarmaster]

An unexpected result of the LED's...  the "GEAR DN" became dim.  Weird.   

I don't see how changing from a resistive load of the incandescents should have any bearing on the down indication.   Time for a review of the schematics.

Things that make you go... hmmmm.
 

Edited January 5, 2016 by Guitarmaster

[jetdriven]

The GR DOWN light is always dimmed when the nav lights are on.

[carusoam]

Observation...

201MKTurbo says... (Paraphrased by me)

1)If the engineers at Mooney wanted LEDs they would have put them in... Or...

2) If the engineers at Mooney wanted brighter lights they would have put them in.

 

hey, wait a minute...

Is that a TN system on your 201?

 

My next plane is going all LEDs and will be TN powered as well.

 

My recognition lights melt their plastic lenses. A West Coast Mooney guy swapped his recog lights out for LEDs or something more thermal friendly.

 

Full disclosure.  Byron helped me identify why I can't see my gear down light during the day.

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Guitarmaster]

The GR DOWN light is always dimmed when the nav lights are on.

Right, but this is with them off.

Sent from my XT1254 using Tapatalk

[Marauder]

5 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said: There is no question that LEDs use less current then incandescent bulbs. And there is no question that they have long life. LEDs have no natural failure mode, they fail from being shaken apart or disassembling themselves through thermal cycling. 

What I don't get is replacing a perfectly good nav light. I have found them to be extremely reliable, but everybody tells me they are tired of replacing landing lights, when I'm talking about nav lights. I just think some people just want more bling on their plane, just like women like jewlery! Instead of solving any real problem.

I replace incandescents with LEDs as they fail. The HUGE thing here is the power budget. Dropping an order of magnitude in current draw is extremely important in an old AC with a single 12 VDC system (batt+alternator).

The only incandescents on my Benz are the xenon headlights and that car has lights under the front seats. The engine shuts off at stops and runs off a Li-ion secondary battery. It's uncanny how long that car will go without restarting. I get 28 MPG along with a 4.2s 0-60 acceleration. That's power management.

Is that the Benz with mood lighting? There is one parked next to me at work. Always afraid I'm going to back into it when I back-in park.

Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk

[ArtVandelay]

An unexpected result of the LED's...  the "GEAR DN" became dim.  Weird.   

I don't see how changing from a resistive load of the incandescents should have any bearing on the down indication.   Time for a review of the schematics.

Things that make you go... hmmmm.

 

If you turn off the lights then the load is zero, and the Gear down should be bright.

[Shadrach]

4 hours ago, HRM said:

 

The only incandescents on my Benz are the xenon headlights and that car has lights under the front seats. 

Xenon lights are not incandescent they are typically gas discharge lamps.

[Guitarmaster]

5 hours ago, teejayevans said:

8 hours ago, Guitarmaster said:

An unexpected result of the LED's...  the "GEAR DN" became dim.  Weird.    I don't see how changing from a resistive load of the incandescents should have any bearing on the down indication.   Time for a review of the schematics.

Things that make you go... hmmmm.

 

 

If you turn off the lights then the load is zero, and the Gear down should be bright.

 

Agreed. I don't believe in coincidences, but in this case, I think I may have something else going on that just happened coincide.  There are issues going on with the gear not wanting to come down in cold weather so it may be related to that.

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Edited January 5, 2016 by Guitarmaster

[1964-M20E]

9 hours ago, DXB said:

The actual benefits of these bulbs seem to far outweigh the risks.   Can anyone articulate a definitive basis for calling these bulbs NOT legal?   If it's just a grey area and seemingly defensible, I'd install in a heartbeat.   Per manufacturer, their  compliance with FAR section 23.183-23.191 requirements would get you pretty close?  I assume the incandescent it replaces isn't an aviation specific bulb.  

As a private pilot you can replace the lights lens and reflector for NAV / position lights as well as you have full authority over the landing light circuit.  The above logbook entry should be sufficient.

Now if you want to stretch it some the light lens and reflector on the new LED NAV position lights it are one complete unit.  theoretically you could replace the  entire unit yourself with a newer LED style with the same logbook entry.  I know a little more complicated than that but the rules do say light lens and reflector.

 

[rbridges]

let's assume the brightness is equivalent and there is no safety issue:

I change the nav lights to these paddle bulbs.  What can happen?  FAA sees it and asks me to switch back?  anything else?  Insurance company finds out?  any blowback from that?  What are the negative consequences if someone gets OCD and brings it up?

I would think keeping the old bulbs and switching them would be the worst that could happen or am I being naive?