Mooney down in Norfolk

[Marauder]

Mooney Flyer posted this link to FB:

http://wavy.com/2015/03/04/plane-owner-talks-about-norfolk-crash-pilot/

I wonder if the panel picture on that news broadcast was from the accident airplane. It is a picture of a 1975 F. I recognize the TKM radio but can't tell from the fuzzy pictures what the two radios above it are. Any clue?

[Mooney20]

I have a question. Why did he divert to Norfolk? Surely he could have gotten the weather by XM, ADS-B, or flight service. Norfolk was barely above minimums. Why go there?

For the same reason that has claimed a lot of pilots: Get Homeitis. The good doctor most likely had commitments that day and Norfolk was most likely where he needed to be. Also, he was probably very familiar with that airport and approach. His divert decision seems reasonable to me.

However, his decision to undertake this flight at all does not seem reasonable- late night, near max range with poor weather at destination. The time period in which the accident occurred coincided with a period of circadian low for most people. He almost certainly was not at the top of his game at the very time he needed to be. But time pressures often paint pilots into a corner and that often results in poor decisions. I've let myself fall into that trap, but fortunately I lived and learned. Let it be a lesson for us all.

Something I'd like to point out to the new or low-time instrument pilots here is that I was not shocked by the controller telling the pilot of a 30-knot groundspeed. The winds aloft in weather conditions as were present that night can be vastly, breathtakingly different than the reported surface winds. For the last 24 years, I've flown an airplane that has a continuous display of the actual winds aloft on a moving map. I have many times seen winds of 40-60 knots a couple thousand feet off the ground. And those strong winds were often 60-90 degrees different than the reported surface wind direction. It can make flying a precise ILS a real challenge.

My advice to the new and low-time instrument pilot is to NEVER give up. Keep your instrument scan going, keep flying the airplane and don't give up! Use whatever autoflight capability your airplane has to the maximum extent possible when faced with a challenge like this one. Despite what you may hear, autoflight is not a crutch. It is a tool. Learn to use it and then do so when you need to.

[mithogo]

One of the victims, Ted Reinhardt had his dog with him on the flight.

[Marauder]

One of the victims, Ted Reinhardt had his dog with him on the flight.

Dog? Nothing was mentioned in the original news broadcasts about a dog. I really wonder how much weight and fuel they were carrying. Seeing their pictures, they all looked to be be heavier set.

Just sad all the way around.

[PTK]

On a different note about this very sad story, how many folks would be ok lending their airplane to somebody.

 

I sure wouldn't!

 

The owner must feel horrible thinking this would've not happened had he not lent his plane.

[mithogo]

Dog? Nothing was mentioned in the original news broadcasts about a dog. I really wonder how much weight and fuel they were carrying. Seeing their pictures, they all looked to be be heavier set.

Just sad all the way around.

I live in Buffalo, my sister knew Ted. She told me about the dog last week, then I read in his obit that the dog named Henry was next to him when he died. Maybe the Norfolk press did not consider the dog's death to be newsworthy.

 

The music community in Bflo is taking his death very hard. He played with Spyro Gyra when they were starting out. Also played in local bands Rodan and Gamalon. He's receiving condolences from across the country and from Canada and London UK.

[Marauder]

I live in Buffalo, my sister knew Ted. She told me about the dog last week, then I read in his obit that the dog named Henry was next to him when he died. Maybe the Norfold press did not consider the dog's death to be newsworthy.

The music comminity in Bflo is taking his death very hard. He played with Spyro Gyra when they were starting out. Also played in local bands Rodan and Gamalon. He's receiving condolences from across the country and from Canada and London UK.

I'm from Buffalo as well. Actually West Seneca. He was about my age and I remember the Gyra days. Tough situation.

[C-GHIJ]

Very sad all around.  Hind site is always 20/20.  We never think it is going to happen to us.  Mistakes can happen to all of us and when they do, they happen fast.  I learned the hard way.  I hope none of you have to learn that lesson.  My heart goes out to the families.  I am amazed at how many people immediately cased stones without knowing all the facts.  We will probably never know them all.

 

I still fly regularly but am much more cautious now.  It is better to be on the ground, wishing you were in the air, than in the air wishing you were on the ground.

[Marauder]

On a different note about this very sad story, how many folks would be ok lending their airplane to somebody.

 

I sure wouldn't!

 

The owner must feel horrible thinking this would've not happened had he not lent his plane.

 

What??!! You won't lend me your plane so that I can experience that fine Swiss watch you have in your panel?!

[zellto1971]

My first post... and maybe my last... on this site.

Mike Buxton was my dear friend. He worked with my children, and became a trusted family friend. He loved flying, and had been flying for three decades. He was a very cautious pilot; not one for taking chances. I've read through the pages of this thread and there's a ton of speculation as to what happened as well as finger pointing. We won't know for a long time what might have happened. We may never know exactly. I'll just say that knowing him, and his meticulous nature in regard to piloting, there had to have been some serious, unforeseen circumstances that affected the final,outcome of the flight.

As to the Mooney itself, my understanding from our conversations was that he was a partner in the aircraft. He had flown that aircraft many times over the last two years at least.

Mike Buxton was a pillar of the community here in Hampton Roads (VA). A great void has been left by his passing. Please understand that there are a great many that are mourning his passing (and that of his friends). A large number of people especially parents with special needs children (myself included) are utterly lost. Please remember this when casting judgement around the what-if's of this tragedy. Thank you.

[PMcClure]

We are truly sorry for your loss. As pilots, we have a hard time not speculating what happened and why. Partly because we are curious by nature and partly because if we were honest, we know that it could be one of us in that plane. We search for the reasons why so we can try to avoid being in the same place. If it can be blamed on some identifiable cause, then we can rationalize that it won't happen to us. I think of this site as pilots talking about pilot stuff and it is easy to forget there may be a wider and more personally involved audience. I am sorry if anything I said or others said that offended you. It is in our nature to find out why and the fact that sometimes we never find out why is hard to accept. 

[Bob_Belville]

My first post... and maybe my last... on this site.

Mike Buxton was my dear friend. He worked with my children, and became a trusted family friend. He loved flying, and had been flying for three decades. He was a very cautious pilot; not one for taking chances. I've read through the pages of this thread and there's a ton of speculation as to what happened as well as finger pointing. We won't know for a long time what might have happened. We may never know exactly. I'll just say that knowing him, and his meticulous nature in regard to piloting, there had to have been some serious, unforeseen circumstances that affected the final,outcome of the flight.

As to the Mooney itself, my understanding from our conversations was that he was a partner in the aircraft. He had flown that aircraft many times over the last two years at least.

Mike Buxton was a pillar of the community here in Hampton Roads (VA). A great void has been left by his passing. Please understand that there are a great many that are mourning his passing (and that of his friends). A large number of people especially parents with special needs children (myself included) are utterly lost. Please remember this when casting judgement around the what-if's of this tragedy. Thank you.

Thanks for posting. While there certainly has been some speculation here, particularly about decision making, that may come across as inappropriate, I hope you'll note that many here have expressed sadness and concern and have even commented that "there, but for the grace of God, go I". Please fill your mourning mind with those sympathetic posts. 

[Amelia]

Very few of us deliberately take stupid chances, and yet, totally preventable accidents happen.We train, we work on being meticulous, but even so, we all make mistakes. We have all looked back, if we are honest, and realized that through our own lapses in judgment, if it hadn't been for sheer blind luck, things could have gone very badly. If Mike Buxton and his friends are not to have died in vain, we pilots need to take a careful look at what happened, and why, even when it involves people as respected as Dr. Buxton. There is no intention to be hurtful, but we each must take very seriously those lessons born in tragedy, that through them, we, and others, might live.

[mithogo]

We are truly sorry for your loss. As pilots, we have a hard time not speculating what happened and why. Partly because we are curious by nature and partly because if we were honest, we know that it could be one of us in that plane. We search for the reasons why so we can try to avoid being in the same place. If it can be blamed on some identifiable cause, then we can rationalize that it won't happen to us. I think of this site as pilots talking about pilot stuff and it is easy to forget there may be a wider and more personally involved audience. I am sorry if anything I said or others said that offended you. It is in our nature to find out why and the fact that sometimes we never find out why is hard to accept. 

Well said.

 

I'm following the story mostly because of the death of the drummer Ted Reinhardt. The local TV and radio stations are still talking about the crash, his funeral is at 1PM today. The response from his friends, fans and family has been amazing. The online guest book linked to his obituary has more entries than I have ever seen. This does not diminish the concern for the families of the other two victims.

 

I'm not a pilot but I've been interested in aircraft safety and investigations since I was stationed at a USMC reserve air group (MAG-41, near Dallas TX) in the 1980s. After reading the original news articles I suspected that the accident was preventable and avoidable.

 

Grief and anger are experienced at times like this. I'll feel better when the investigation is over and a report is issued.

[mithogo]

How long does it take for the FAA to file a preliminary report and make it public?

[PaulB]

How long does it take for the FAA to file a preliminary report and make it public?

I've seen a lot of variability but it's usually a month or two.

[midlifeflyer]

How long does it take for the FAA to file a preliminary report and make it public?

The FAA doesn't write reports on accident investigations. That's the job of the NTSB.

It depends on the accident and how much investigation is required.

[mithogo]

Thanks guys, I'd like to know the results of the NTSB investigation. Are the reportsavailable to the public?

[Shadrach]

A static blockage would overread in a desent .

And adding to the confusion his altimeter apparently was not set correctly and he misheard the actual altimeter setting.

"29:18 6BB current weather is uh 00 0858z 220 at one niner. Gusting 23. visibility is 2 ½ mist, ceiling at 300 overcast. Temp is 08. Dewpoint 07. Altimeter is two niner niner zero. [unintelligible]"

"Altimeter is two niner niner two. We had it set higher over."

[FloridaMan]

Higher by how much? That should probably have been readable in the accident airplane. The 30kts over the ground is something of a concern as well. The winds aloft I believe were 60+kts at 6000ft and the winds at the surface were 19G23, which means that there was a 40kt gradient. Stall speed was likely between 50 and 60kts, given that they were light on fuel. I'm thinking there may have been significant wind shear that he might not have carried enough speed for and that, in this case, flying the localizer slowly in the "washing machine" may have contributed to being knocked off course alongwith significant vibration of the instruments. Old needles in turbulence might've been unstable. Factor in a gust or drop in winds that could have facilitated a stall and that makes for a situation none of us would have wanted to find ourselves in. 

 

The what-ifs in my head include wondering whether if it would be best to haul ass down the localizer for directional stability until you had the runway in sight and then chopping power. This is something I've been meaning to practice on ILS approaches. 

[Hank]

I've hauled it down the ILS with the DPE, being nice to the Lear behind me, but I slowed back to 90 knots by the FAF. May try it again and go a little lower before slowing. Had no trouble with it that time. (I mean, I passed the checkride, right?

[midlifeflyer]

Thanks guys, I'd like to know the results of the NTSB investigation. Are the reportsavailable to the public?

Yes.

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/index.aspx

[mithogo]

Here is the NTSB Preliminary:

 

http://www.ntsb.gov/_layouts/ntsb.aviation/brief.aspx?ev_id=20150304X81814&key=1

[rbridges]

I flew ILS into Cobb county last week. Kinda bumpy but ceilings way above minimums during the day time. I can see how late night with lots of turbulence could throw you off your game.

[mithogo]

I flew ILS into Cobb county last week. Kinda bumpy but ceilings way above minimums during the day time. I can see how late night with lots of turbulence could throw you off your game.

He didn't have much fuel when he went down. Do newer aircraft have tanks that minimize sloshing around of fuel during turbulence?