carusoam Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 F, Do you have a website for Wings? Or any other contact info? That's a nice piece of information. Best regards, -a- Quote
M20F Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 https://www.wingsfinancial.com/boatrvtoyloans Quote
Thunder669 Posted December 3, 2014 Author Report Posted December 3, 2014 Thanks for all the advice guys. I did ask my bank but they are $1m plus, and the credit union doesn't do aircraft. Thinking about calling aopa tomorrow and explain the situation and see if they think they can help or not. If not then I may talk to the credit union about a personal loan and look to an older plane. I currently have just over $15k in the savings and I've seen some E models going for $30k. I just really wanted a long body to give the kids some leg room in the back seat Quote
cliffy Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 There is a book called Purchasing & Evaluating Airplanes: Brian M. Jacobson . Its a good book I have it I used it. Get it if only to get ideas about the process. You can use "search" here as all this has been discussed before. One rule to remember- ALL airplanes have issues and the lower you go in the price spectrum for a particular model the more issues they have, Many can be unknown to the owner. Absolutely have a pre-buy done by a Mooney knowledgeable A&P, not just any shop or A&P and not the shop that currently maintains the airplane. Plan on your first annual being 15% at least of the purchase price. It just seems to work out that way. It would be a very rare bird indeed that didn't need "stuff" the first 2 years and it wouldn't be priced at the bottom of the market. Now for the good side- you can find good deals on older Mooneys. Even the Cs can haul 4 especially if they are kids in the back. Don't pass on a good D converted to controllable prop and suck-em up gear. Same as a C in all respects.  You can make it happen and learn a lot in the chase. Make it a game and have fun with it and you'll find the right airplane. 2 Quote
Danb Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 I realize the risk of using or refinancing your residence but if you do not use your plane for business and can afford the payment why not do a re-fi at historically low interest rates and at least you can write off the interest on your tax return, use it for charity work and use some accepted calculations to write off your hours on your donations there a a fair amount of ways to write off some of our flying if it is not for business little pigs get fed and big pigs get slaughtered.. I prepare a number of tax returns for both business pilots and personal pilots, hate to make Uncle rich ...let them help us..anybody get one of those free cell phones...use the system wisely and properly get good professional advice to help us support our pleasure... Quote
bonal Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 Just my opinion and this is coming from someone that does not think financing an airplane is a good idea I also recognize that there are things in life we cannot afford outright which is why there is such a thing as loans. Some options do exist for GA loans and they have been mentioned here. As for a refinance on a home loan I saw so many people do this to buy all kinds of things and then they are paying for a car or truck or boat for 20 or 30 years seems kind of dumb to me. Be patient I had to wait 50 years before I could swing it. As long as you keep your eye on the goal you will succeed 1 Quote
carusoam Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 Thoughts on loans... (1) What is a typical loan period people would use for a Mooney? (2) Re: Bonal's thought The difference (possibly) between financing a Mooney vs. the other things on your list... 10 years from now, the maintained Mooney maintains a fair amount of its value. (3) Try to reserve calling something 'dumb' for topics like flying in icing conditions during a thunderstorm... (4) When paying interest, most people would pay it off sooner at a lower rate, rather than later. (5) Using a 30 year mortgage to pay for a plane...that's a long term plan. (6) people are different, incomes, expenses and desires are different. Future income and future expenses will be different. There isn't a one size fits all theory on how to pay for flying... (7) my favorite method to pay for a plane, somebody defined about four years ago, was his investing plan... Sounded more like an investment scheme to me... Somebody probably called It dumb... I'm reviewing the three year chart of QQQ...while typing. See if you can find that thread. Seek professional advice on this...! If you can find this thread share it back with me, I can't find it. (8) another nice thing about going the home loan route, it can be paid back early without a penalty. Always read every line of the financial document to see these things are in there... My experience is neither financial or plane sales....I'm a PP... Best regards, -a- Quote
bonal Posted December 3, 2014 Report Posted December 3, 2014 Carusoam, it's nice to know my opinions can generate a response people seldom comment on dribble and I always look forward to reading your posts as they are usually well put. That being said what I spelled out was nothing more than my opinion and I have not changed it since reading your response. as for my list, while airplane values do better than most cars and trucks there are plenty of posts about the falling prices on airplanes I know a lot of people that lost every thing when they refinanced homes adding new toys and then having the bottom fall out on the home which they were then unable to refinance as there ARM's came due. When it comes to money I am a very conservative but that is just me I know I will never be rich but I also know I will never be poor. I am in no way trying to disway the original poster and I feel I have made only comments of encouragement to be patient and stay the course. My best regards Quote
Thunder669 Posted December 3, 2014 Author Report Posted December 3, 2014 It is all good advice and I appreciate all of it. I just bought my house a year ago so not nearly enough equity in it to be a viable option. I am talking to a couple other finance companies and getting opinions and hopefully will have better luck there and still be able to bring this bird home. Quote
Browncbr1 Posted December 4, 2014 Report Posted December 4, 2014 There is a fellow on here with a nice low time E asking $29k. Needs paint, but seems pretty nice. He posted it on barnstormers Quote
gsxrpilot Posted December 4, 2014 Report Posted December 4, 2014 I wanted to have a plane years ago but never could swing the finances. So I flew rentals until I could join a club. Then I flew club planes. Finally this year with the kids about to finish college I was in a position to buy whatever I wanted for cash. I had enough in savings to buy a K or Rocket. So I went and bought a really nice C. I don't have to sweat the maintenance and can afford all the 100LL. I can burn. Lately I've been wondering if my girl might need a friend. A little Starduster too might make a good hanger mate for the Mooney. My way doesn't work for everyone but it works for me. Best of luck Thunder. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk 2 Quote
BigTex Posted December 4, 2014 Report Posted December 4, 2014 I wanted to have a plane years ago but never could swing the finances. So I flew rentals until I could join a club. Then I flew club planes. Finally this year with the kids about to finish college I was in a position to buy whatever I wanted for cash. I had enough in savings to buy a K or Rocket. So I went and bought a really nice C. I don't have to sweat the maintenance and can afford all the 100LL. I can burn. Lately I've been wondering if my girl might need a friend. A little Starduster too might make a good hanger mate for the Mooney. My way doesn't work for everyone but it works for me. Best of luck Thunder. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk  I have a bunch of hours in a startduster Too and he's a really fun plane... visibility over the nose in the fair is a bear! Depending on what you want to do with it, there might be better aerobatic planes out there. Quote
gsxrpilot Posted December 4, 2014 Report Posted December 4, 2014 I would like to have an open cockpit and capable of light aerobatics. But most of all economical so that I can fly without thinking of the cost. Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk Quote
Marauder Posted December 4, 2014 Report Posted December 4, 2014 Just my opinion and this is coming from someone that does not think financing an airplane is a good idea I also recognize that there are things in life we cannot afford outright which is why there is such a thing as loans. Some options do exist for GA loans and they have been mentioned here. As for a refinance on a home loan I saw so many people do this to buy all kinds of things and then they are paying for a car or truck or boat for 20 or 30 years seems kind of dumb to me. Be patient I had to wait 50 years before I could swing it. As long as you keep your eye on the goal you will succeed Thoughts on loans... (1) What is a typical loan period people would use for a Mooney? (2) Re: Bonal's thought The difference (possibly) between financing a Mooney vs. the other things on your list... 10 years from now, the maintained Mooney maintains a fair amount of its value. (3) Try to reserve calling something 'dumb' for topics like flying in icing conditions during a thunderstorm... (4) When paying interest, most people would pay it off sooner at a lower rate, rather than later. (5) Using a 30 year mortgage to pay for a plane...that's a long term plan. (6) people are different, incomes, expenses and desires are different. Future income and future expenses will be different. There isn't a one size fits all theory on how to pay for flying... (7) my favorite method to pay for a plane, somebody defined about four years ago, was his investing plan... Sounded more like an investment scheme to me... Somebody probably called It dumb... I'm reviewing the three year chart of QQQ...while typing. See if you can find that thread. Seek professional advice on this...! If you can find this thread share it back with me, I can't find it. (8) another nice thing about going the home loan route, it can be paid back early without a penalty. Always read every line of the financial document to see these things are in there... My experience is neither financial or plane sales....I'm a PP... Best regards, -a- Anthony -- bonal's message was clearly an opinion (he even stated so). You're not developing a mean streak are you? Don't make me come over to Princeton again and make you buy me lunch! I share a similar perspective on "non essential" financing. Maybe it is because both of my parents lived through the Great Depression, but I was taught you financed the things you need, not the stuff you want. Why? Simply because if you run into a situation where you need to finance something unexpectedly, like a car, and your financing power is tied up in a "want" it could put stress in the family environment. The same could be said if a double income family loses one of the incomes and that monthly "airplane" bill comes due. Outside of cheating on our spouses (and our relationships with our Mooneys may be that), financial strain is often a leading contributor to marital rifts. I personally prefer the "marauder" approach... Hit the bank account (took me a while to break the habit of stuffing my mattress) hard and claim I have no idea where the money went. Quote
Hank Posted December 4, 2014 Report Posted December 4, 2014 I used a home equity loan to buy the first half, then after a refi (rates were too good to pass up!) used a "normal" 5-year loan to buy the second half. The key to sleeping at night is to have total expenses at a reasonable level, i.e., still putting >10% into retirement, have enough left for annual, insurance, maintenance and fuel, and not be in a world of hurt when a deer takes out your wife's car. Been there, done that. Thus my house isn't huge, my cars are older (except her "new" one) and I fly a fuel efficient M20-C. 2 Quote
carusoam Posted December 4, 2014 Report Posted December 4, 2014 Chris, My deepest apologies... Lost control of where I was going... I tried to define what worked for me, then realized how unique I might be.... Financing machinery is a passion, as is buying and selling machinery... So if you are unique like me...? (1) Borrow responsibly. Know that the finance world likes to give bigger loans than the end users can comfortably repay. (2) Purchase responsibly. The PPI is an expensive step for your wallet's protection. (3) Finances are personal, what works for one person may change over time and will be different for other people. (4) looking back over my tracks, I refinanced my house to essentially pay for a fully functional plane... Really financially dumb if the the plane doesn't work out and can't be sold back at a reasonable price, in a short enough period of time. (5) I also experimented with the MS post from a couple years back on the QQQ ETF... a positively lesson in risk management for finance. There were some brash risky statements in there... (6) my car was bought second hand and is old, really old...oil changes and mechanical work done by me... Latest advice came from a member of MS Re: Electronic ignition systems... The money has to come from somewhere. More income, smaller house, older cars, DIY, serious level of buy-in from the family, etc... (7) financing a plane is OK with me. Good financial control is key. Have some reserves for the expected unexpected maintenace. I was trying to share some knowledge in a positive way, but I may have missed the point. A second time... All feedback is greatly appreciated. Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
Marauder Posted December 4, 2014 Report Posted December 4, 2014 Chris, My deepest apologies... Lost control of where I was going... I tried to define what worked for me, then realized how unique I might be.... Financing machinery is a passion, as is buying and selling machinery... So if you are unique like me...? (1) Borrow responsibly. Know that the finance world likes to give bigger loans than the end users can comfortably repay. (2) Purchase responsibly. The PPI is an expensive step for your wallet's protection. (3) Finances are personal, what works for one person may change over time and will be different for other people. (4) looking back over my tracks, I refinanced my house to essentially pay for a fully functional plane... Really financially dumb if the the plane doesn't work out and can't be sold back at a reasonable price, in a short enough period of time. (5) I also experimented with the MS post from a couple years back on the QQQ ETF... a positively lesson in risk management for finance. There were some brash risky statements in there... (6) my car was bought second hand and is old, really old...oil changes and mechanical work done by me... Latest advice came from a member of MS Re: Electronic ignition systems... The money has to come from somewhere. More income, smaller house, older cars, DIY, serious level of buy-in from the family, etc... (7) financing a plane is OK with me. Good financial control is key. Have some reserves for the expected unexpected maintenace. I was trying to share some knowledge in a positive way, but I may have missed the point. A second time... All feedback is greatly appreciated. Best regards, -a- I think your points of 1, 2 & 3 are key to the conversation. Way too many people get into financial trouble by borrowing more than they should or by buying stuff they financially shouldn't. At the end of the day, it truly is a personal decision. 1 Quote
carusoam Posted December 4, 2014 Report Posted December 4, 2014 Hank and Chris... Engineers doing finance... Not to be confused with financial engineering..! Where is Thunder today? Best regards, -a- Quote
Thunder669 Posted December 5, 2014 Author Report Posted December 5, 2014 Well I sold the hot rod car and bought a cheap minivan and have sold all my other toys so there I would risk getting in over my head. So today after doing some investigation and many phone calls I got to the root of the problem. There are some serious errors on my trans union credit report. I have been doing monitoring of my credit score but only through experian. Lesson to me always watch all 3!!!!! So I have filed a dispute with them but it can take up to 6 weeks to get that corrected and even then depending on how they report it I might still be S.O.L. So I went over to my local credit union since I have had several loans through them and the use experian which shows the most accurate info. Unfortunately they will not finance an airplane. Told me with my score and debt ratio if I wanted an $70,000 RV or corvette or something I could have it today but no plane. So looks like for now even with $15,000 in savings and virtually no debt I am still stuck without being able to buy a plane. I even tried to see about $20000 so I could look at some of the E models, like the one mentioned earlier but no luck there either. Man I want to fly so bad but still grounded for now. Thanks again for all the support and advice, all of it is appreciated Quote
FloridaMan Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 You might be able to subscribe to the Lexington Law service if there are errors. I had a couple things that didn't belong on my credit report and they got rid of them quickly. In my experience utility companies and banks will not remove shit, but cable companies and medical bills go away. I merged a meter from a mother-in-law cottage into the house's utilities and the $35 final bill went into the void and showed up on my credit report. I had a 30 day late on a $35 credit card bill that I paid online, but the process, for whatever reason, was not recorded. Those two items alone dropped my credit score by 150 points. I discovered a medical bill from a walk-in copay that my insurance didn't reimburse and the bill never made it to me.  The lawyers will advise you to maintain the debt and try to negotiate a "pay off for deletion" with the institution. I found that only worked with a small medical bill. For anything else, pay it off and then hope that it's not worth the collection company's time to respond to the weekly letters requesting further documentation since there's no economic advantage for them to try to collect.  Another note on aircraft financing, if there is any blemish on the title, even from 50 years ago, you may not get financing. The AOPA search only goes back around 10 years and may come back clean. Some loan agencies use aerospacereports which goes back all the way.  I find the credit system very frustrating because I am responsible with my bills, but I travel quite a bit and I've moved occasionally. It only takes a couple bills to get delayed in forwarding or lost to screw up your credit, even if it's a tiny amount compared to your credit flow. It would be nice if there was a central way of notifying you before things go onto your report as it doesn't make sense how they can find you to taint your credit and yet they can't reach you beforehand. Quote
bonal Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 Thunder, I think the word here is "patience " looks like you have made some good choices toward aircraft ownership by getting rid of some items that once you own your Mooney you won't be spending much time on anyway. The thing to do now is regroup and think about the future build a strategy and put everything you can into your war chest. Unless you are really old or are suffering from a terminal illness you have the time till you are able to purchase and it will pass quicker than crap through a goose. In the mean time you will continue to learn more and be able to know what your mission is and which Mooney fits the bill. You might also look into a partnership. Most importantly don't get frustrated as long as you keep you sites on target you will succeed. Quote
Thunder669 Posted December 5, 2014 Author Report Posted December 5, 2014 I guess the real slap in the face is this one "debt" is something that shouldn't even exist. I was honorably discharged from the army in 2001 and because of injuries to my lower back and both knees was later rated as a 30% disabled vet. Fast forward to 2012 and I am monitoring my credit when all of a sudden this collections account pops up from the department of defense. I get ahold of them and they claim they overpaid me while I was in. And it took them over 11 years to find out???? Then not contact me to try and pay just automatically send it to collections???? So I finally get them to take it out of collections and set up a payment plane that I have been paying religiously. Now for some reason this one is back to reporting it as a collection. So I took some of my savings today and paid it in full but if they don't change it from being a collection, even with it being paid in full, it is going to keep my credit screwed up for several years. Quote
FloridaMan Posted December 5, 2014 Report Posted December 5, 2014 I've been there. Purchasing my airplane was a journey as well. As was said "patience" saved my ass and hindsight from the issues that I had through the purchasing process showed me that I dodged more than one bullet through blind luck in missing out on an airplane. I recommend subscribing to the myFICO service as well for credit monitoring, at least while you're going through this process. Quote
garytex Posted December 6, 2014 Report Posted December 6, 2014 TWinter's got it right, shop lenders. Also shop around, shop the Fs and Es, they're cheaper. And shop local, it's so much easier and less risky. Quote
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.