Wild Ride

[flyboy0681]

My teenage daughter is (was) traveling from Birmingham to Las Vegas today through Denver. She called me in tears because the United flight made an emergency landing in Springfield Missouri due to cabin pressure problems, resulting in the masks coming down and an emergency descent.  She's flown many times with me in the Mooney but was frightened to death on this one.

 

While she has since calmed down, she doesn't know what the story is or where she will be spending the night. But at least she is safe on the ground.

 

Here is Flightware's profile. Notice the rate of descent.

 

[aviatoreb]

Wow - very scary for them. That was certainly an emergency decent at a peak of almost 6000fpm.  That must have felt like a nose dive from the cabin.  I'm glad she is fine, and the others too.  Someone was awake at the yoke and doing a good job up there at the cockpit it seems.

[Hank]

Wow! 26,000' descent in 6 minutes! 4000 fpm average. Hope she gets there soon, vacation's waiting . . .

[Piloto]

Woow!!! that will plug your ears and sinus. At least she didn't get Ebola. The worse of these events is missing your connecting flight. In some instances you have to wait for a next day flight, hoping there is room for you. If you have to sleep at the airport tie your luggage to your waist to keep it from getting stolen. I lost mine sleeping at Heathrow. 

 

José

[flyboy0681]

Woow!!! that will plug your ears and sinus. At least she didn't get Ebola. The worse of these events is missing your connecting flight. In some instances you have to wait for a next day flight, hoping there is room for you. If you have to sleep at the airport tie your luggage to your waist to keep it from getting stolen. I lost mine sleeping at Heathrow. 

 

José

 

She didn't report any ear problems but others were treated:

 

http://www.kspr.com/news/local/united-flight-makes-emergency-landing-at-springfield-airport/21051620_29327846

[Bob - S50]

If it was a slow loss of pressure, the ears would probably never notice.  The only altitude change they would feel would be from the point where they caught the cabin on the way down (probably about 12k or 13k) until they leveled off at 10k.  I've had two pressurization problems in 25 years with the airlines.  One slow loss of cabin pressure and one that would only pressurize to about 2.5 psi difference during a climbout.  Never had a rapid loss.

 

Glad your daughter is safe and starting to feel a little less stressed.

 

Bob

[flyboy0681]

If it was a slow loss of pressure, the ears would probably never notice.  The only altitude change they would feel would be from the point where they caught the cabin on the way down (probably about 12k or 13k) until they leveled off at 10k.  I've had two pressurization problems in 25 years with the airlines.  One slow loss of cabin pressure and one that would only pressurize to about 2.5 psi difference during a climbout.  Never had a rapid loss.

 

Glad your daughter is safe and starting to feel a little less stressed.

 

Bob

 

Also notice the speed fluctuations while at 10,000. From a 324 kts to 235.

 

In the end she made it to her destination late last night, albeit very shaken. But she was brave enough to get back on the horse.

[flyboy0681]

.. brave girl to get on another airplane the next day to continue.

 

 

Within three hours she was on the replacement plane that was dispatched and made it to her destination late last night.

 

Oh to be young again.

[Danb]

Just thank god she's ok and all turned out well

[Bob - S50]

Also notice the speed fluctuations while at 10,000. From a 324 kts to 235.

 

In the end she made it to her destination late last night, albeit very shaken. But she was brave enough to get back on the horse.

The emergency descent would involve turning off the autopilot, pulling the power to idle, extending the speed brake and sticking the nose down to accelerate to and maintain near limiting speed.  Once they leveled off, since we don't practice it often, they probably momentarily left the power at idle, then realized they were slowing down.  They then would retract the speed brakes and add power to get back up to cruise speed.  373 MPH is about 325 Knots.  At 10,000' that would be about 270 KIAS.  Pretty conservative cruise speed.  Human factor.

 

Bob

[Jim Peace]

because the United flight made an emergency landing in Springfield Missouri 

Glad all worked out well but that was not United Airlines....just a UAL flight number

 

also 4000-5000 fpm heading down in a jet is not that bad.....normal ops for some airplanes if they keep you a little high and trying to make a crossing restriction...with idle thrust and speed brakes and VNAV showing good info its fairly comfortable and fun to watch it all come together and be only a knot or so from redline.....................space shuttle descent....

[Super Dave]

The crew would have initiated an emergency descent almost immediately using an emergency descent checklist ... I estimate if you put it on the redline that ERJ would do six to seven thousand feet per minute - so they most likely did a more conservative descent staying a bit off the red-line (over speed raster on the speed tape) I have not flown those ... and my memory is suspect! But I do have a type-rating and probably three thousand hours in CRJs. I am thinking those also had duel automatic pressure controllers as well as a manual pressure controller ....

 

 

 

The emergency descent would involve turning off the autopilot, pulling the power to idle, extending the speed brake and sticking the nose down to accelerate to and maintain near limiting speed.  Once they leveled off, since we don't practice it often, they probably momentarily left the power at idle, then realized they were slowing down.  They then would retract the speed brakes and add power to get back up to cruise speed.  373 MPH is about 325 Knots.  At 10,000' that would be about 270 KIAS.  Pretty conservative cruise speed.  Human factor.

 

 

I fly corporate ERJs and just finished my six month recurrent simulator training on Thursday. The emergency descent checklist is performed from memory, and the first two items are

1. Cabin Crew..................NOTIFY

2. Fasten Seatbelt Sign...ON

I'm not joking these are really the first two items on the checklist.

 

3. Thrust Levers....IDLE

4. Speed Brakes...OPEN

5. Airspeed...........MAX 250

6. Landing Gear....DOWN

7. Descent............INITIATE

8. Altitude.............MEA OR 10,000 FT WHICHEVER IS HIGHER

 

We are encouraged to leave the autopilot on throughout the maneuver, so it's just a matter of going to idle, opening the speed brakes, waiting for 250, then extending the gear and simultaneously selecting "speed" on the vertical mode of the flight director. No skill required. The autopilot pitches over and initially dips about 15 knots below 250, but quickly gets back to 250 and keeps it nailed all the way to 10,000'. This results in an initial descent rate of around 8000FPM out of 36,000' slowing to 6000FPM approaching 10,000'. 250KIAS is the max speed with gear extended, so we are actually quite a bit below redline. 

 

Once leveled at 10,000', the airplane needs to be slowed to 200KIAS for gear retraction. Once the gear is up the airplane can be accelerated to redline-320KIAS. So the airspeed fluctuation at 10,000' actually looks pretty textbook perfect.

 

The ERJ only has one auto pressurization controller and one manual controller. Auto controller drives an electro-pnematic outflow valve and a slaved pneumatic outflow valve. In manual, the electro-pneumatic outflow valve closes and the pneumatic outflow valve is controlled manually.

 

Flyboy, glad to hear your daughter is safe and still able to fly.

[carusoam]

Wondering what the cabin crew told the passengers what was happening..?

As a passenger, I have returned to the gates twice after departing...

1) 'we have a small hole in the engine' = DC10 engines are large, the small hole launched enough debris to blow out two tires on the T/O roll... Passengers near me were talking about how they would fix a small hole...?

2) 'we have too much heat in the rear engine' = 727 with an engine fire in the back.

Key thing to be aware of... Getting on the next flight to anywhere....is now the primary goal.

It's good to have the gold card,

-a-

[flyboy0681]

I had time to speak at length with her about the incident and she said that there was no announcement made until they leveled off, which was about 6 minutes into the descent. First the masks came down and then the long trek to 10,000. She also mentioned that she was sitting at a window and that there was no sky visible, just a rapidly approaching ground. She really thought this was the end, and now I can see why.

 

I am grateful to the crew and how their training instantly kicked in.

[carusoam]

Thanks for sharing the details.

My experiences were before and a few minutes after T/O. Not much time to be uncomfortable...

Best regards,

-a-

[wiguy]

I agree, passengers don't like anything abnormal, don't blame them. Glad the daughter made it through alright.

At least a 'controlled descent' is better that other alternatives, still looking for MH-370.

[Lionudakis]

Wow ! I have that plane in my possession this morning

It was a faulty cabin pressure controller. It's being test flown this morning to 370.

Sorry to hear your daughter had to experience that

[flyboy0681]

Wow ! I have that plane in my possession this morning

It was a faulty cabin pressure controller. It's being test flown this morning to 370.

Sorry to hear your daughter had to experience that

 

Holy crap. What are the chances that a fellow Mooney driver would not only read my posting but would fly that actual aircraft?

 

Technically speaking, did the plane actually lose pressure or was it a faulty sensor which reported a problem that didn't occur?

[flyboy0681]

The description "faulty pressure controller" ("controller" not sensor) along with your daughter's account that the masks in back dropped ... and the information posted that several people were treated (I assume for ear problems) ... leads me to conclude it was an actual depressurization event. OF COURSE I am always wrong and post incorrect information ... so I am sure you can clear this up with a little research?

 

The incident was fairly traumatic for her and I'm trying to get every last piece of information. Can you give me that?

[Lionudakis]

I'm not actually flying it (I wish I was instead of current tasks) I'm supervisor of maintenance, we had list of checks and engineering tasks to verify, and further parts to check/change. It now seems it was multiple component. There is a stand alone altimetric switch that deploys the masks over cabin altitude of 14000. It is completely separate from the pressurization. The plane has had a previous write up for pressurization fluctuations, hence the test flights and engineering support, especially after an emerg landing. Rapid depressurizations are rare, This might be the second one I recall in my 15yrs.

[flyboy0681]

I'm not actually flying it (I wish I was instead of current tasks) I'm supervisor of maintenance, we had list of checks and engineering tasks to verify, and further parts to check/change. It now seems it was multiple component. There is a stand alone altimetric switch that deploys the masks over cabin altitude of 14000. It is completely separate from the pressurization. The plane has had a previous write up for pressurization fluctuations, hence the test flights and engineering support, especially after an emerg landing. Rapid depressurizations are rare, This might be the second one I recall in my 15yrs.

 

 

All the better as you were able to furnish the technical details that I was looking for.

[cliffy]

I've had 3 RDs (rapid decompressions) in my career. 2 at altitude and one on climb out at 24000. None could be controlled by alternate or manual means so down we went. After each one as soon as we leveled out I made an announcement to the PAX as to what happened and what we were going to do, hoping to ease there concerns. In older planes (727) A/P off and push over, on newer (A320) the A/P does it.

Once the masks go on for the pilots, the real emergency is over, now get down for the PAX.   After you get down now you need a plan because if you are far from home you need an alternate because of gas limits down low. THAT is not an "emergency landing" by any measure, as it is usually reported. 

I've actually flown twice from LAS to SFO and back, non-pressurized in a 757, that had both A/C packs inop (legal MEL) No emergency landing there. No different from getting down with packs or pressurization dead and then landing unpressurized. 

Though it may be unnerving to PAX it is really a non-event. 

[fantom]

The incident was fairly traumatic for her and I'm trying to get every last piece of information. Can you give me that?

Thinking of suing

[flyboy0681]

Thinking of suing

 

Nothing to sue over. Things like this happen and I just wanted to know what happened for my own edification.

[flyboy0681]

I've had 3 RDs (rapid decompressions) in my career. 2 at altitude and one on climb out at 24000. None could be controlled by alternate or manual means so down we went. After each one as soon as we leveled out I made an announcement to the PAX as to what happened and what we were going to do, hoping to ease there concerns. In older planes (727) A/P off and push over, on newer (A320) the A/P does it.

Once the masks go on for the pilots, the real emergency is over, now get down for the PAX.   After you get down now you need a plan because if you are far from home you need an alternate because of gas limits down low. THAT is not an "emergency landing" by any measure, as it is usually reported. 

I've actually flown twice from LAS to SFO and back, non-pressurized in a 757, that had both A/C packs inop (legal MEL) No emergency landing there. No different from getting down with packs or pressurization dead and then landing unpressurized. 

Though it may be unnerving to PAX it is really a non-event. 

 

I realize that things are busy upfront but had the people in the back been informed early on what was going on, it would have alleviated a tremendous amount of anxiety and genuine fear.