STARs

[Hondo]

STARs may have mandatory speeds and crossing altitudes. Pilots shall maintain last assigned altitude until receiving authorization to descend in order to comply with published restrictions.  The required authorization will contain the phrase "descend via", which authorizes a pilot to navigate, vertically and horizontally, to comply with the procedure.  

 

 

What is the best way to handle a STAR that ATC assigns close to your arrival, if the initial fix has a mandatory crossing altitude several thousand feet below you and ATC

says nothing about your altitude?  If you don't want a slam dunk or worse, how do you work with ATC?

 

[Super Dave]

Request lower a little before the point where a comfortable descent rate would make the crossing restriction. If they don't let you down, advise that you will be unable to make the restriction unless you start down.

Often times they will have no problem letting you down early, it's just that they are used to working turbines that want to stay high as long as possible. Also, they may not actually need you to make the restriction and will assign an alternate altitude, or they may say something like "do your best" to make the restriction.

[midlifeflyer]

As Super Dave says, ask.

 

It's really no different than if there wasn't a STAR.

 

I've read a number of things suggesting that "descend via" is rarely used in the US and that STARs are primarily used here for course guidance with ATC handling the vertical.

[Dave Marten]

Hondo,

 

Remember the intent of a STAR is efficiently transitioning aircraft from the high altitude enroute structure into the terminal environment and hence rarely issued to Mooney drivers. Expect ATC instead will seek to 'move you outta the way' to make room for the heavy iron on the arrival. But, good to know your procedures if the use of STARs for piston-powered arrivals happens occur in your area (maybe east coast, occasionally here in LA). Even descending out of the FLs in my 231 I've rarely been given the opportunity to fly the STAR, its always been a 'get out of the arrival corridor with a vector/direct-to before you get run over' type clearance. Which in most cases usually results in a more direct route to the destination.

 

A piston single on a STAR is like a moped on the interstate.

 

Of note here is the new FAA InFO covering phraseology changes to "climb via / descend via" beginning 3 April 14.

 

http://www.nbaa.org/ops/cns/pbn/climb-via/InFO14003-climb-via-descend-via.pdf

 

Also if you're looking for some study materials relating to STARs and SIDs take a look at the NBAA page below. A lot of great info.

 

http://www.nbaa.org/ops/cns/pbn/climb-via/

 

And FAA TV: http://www.faa.gov/tv/?mediaId=507

 

Enjoy!

[WardHolbrook]

I've read a number of things suggesting that "descend via" is rarely used in the US and that STARs are primarily used here for course guidance with ATC handling the vertical.

 

It's very common to get "descend via" clearances in jets, but you probably won't get them very often if at all propeller-driven aircraft - even the fastest prop jobs have trouble maintaining the pace that the jets set.

 

As for the OP's question - when in doubt, always ask ATC.  

[1964-M20E]

I usually file no SIDS and no STARS.  My thoughts are they are primarily for the big iron.  I will look at them and try to include some of the WPTS in my flight plan to help out where I can.   I have even had ATC ask me to execute a particular STAR or SID and I'll tell them not able.  I've never had any problems or long reroutes because of this.

[aviatoreb]

I seem to get STARs fairly often, in the Northeast, esp when going to KHFD, (West Chester) and last week for example when going to KHVN (New Haven, CT), and sometimes SIDs.  I am not sure why less often SIDs.  They are no big deal, but still for some reason I always get a little annoyed since when I get a STAR then I know what will happen next - every ten minutes I get amendments to routing and that keeps me busy.

[Dave Marten]

I am not sure why less often SIDs.

You probably do most of your flying in areas of benign terrain within radar coverage and are normally afforded radar vectors from fields where diverse departures are authorized (no obstacles penetrating the 40:1 obstacle identifcation surface) hence standard climb gradients (no trouble "T").

 

When rocks get in the way then you may well find yourself on the SID.

 

Remeber from the AIM:

 

Standard Instrument Departures are air traffic control (ATC) procedures printed for pilot/controller use in graphic form to provide obstruction clearance and a transition from the terminal area to the appropriate en route structure. SIDs are primarily designed for system enhancement and to reduce pilot/controller workload. ATC clearance must be received prior to flying a SID.

 

BL: if there is a published SID review it to determine why its there. If there is a non-standard climb gradient then the procedure is published to help keep you outta the dirt. Sure, if the radar coverage is good you may still get that friendly radar vector departure.

[aviatoreb]

You probably do most of your flying in areas of benign terrain within radar coverage and are normally afforded radar vectors from fields where diverse departures are authorized (no obstacles penetrating the 40:1 obstacle identifcation surface) hence standard climb gradients (no trouble "T").

 

When rocks get in the way then you may well find yourself on the SID.

 

Remeber from the AIM:

 

Standard Instrument Departures are air traffic control (ATC) procedures printed for pilot/controller use in graphic form to provide obstruction clearance and a transition from the terminal area to the appropriate en route structure. SIDs are primarily designed for system enhancement and to reduce pilot/controller workload. ATC clearance must be received prior to flying a SID.

 

BL: if there is a published SID review it to determine why its there. If there is a non-standard climb gradient then the procedure is published to help keep you outta the dirt. Sure, if the radar coverage is good you may still get that friendly radar vector departure.

 

Aha!  Thanks.

[midlifeflyer]

I usually file no SIDS and no STARS.  My thoughts are they are primarily for the big iron.  I will look at them and try to include some of the WPTS in my flight plan to help out where I can.   I have even had ATC ask me to execute a particular STAR or SID and I'll tell them not able.  I've never had any problems or long reroutes because of this.

 

You are more likely to get the exact same routing as the SID or STAR but without the benefit of having it nicely charted for you, than you are a re-route.

 

Personally, I never quite understood "No SID no STAR." True, they are generally for the big iron but that just means we (low altitude piston singles) generally don't get them. And when we do, they tend in my experience to be routes, not altitudes. Given a choice between a charted route and the same route in longhand, I'll take the charted route every time.

[fluffysheap]

Flying out of KFTG in Denver, ATC always issues me a SID.  Then, 90% of the time, they give me direct routing before I get to the first waypoint.  I think they just want to give me a path that's low-workload (for them) in case they get busy.

 

The only time I've ever been given a STAR was flying into KBJC in Seattle.  Being Seattle, it was IMC and, again I think they just wanted to be able to predict what was going to happen without worrying about it.  I had never flown one before and, I must confess, I didn't fly it all that well.  Probably caused them more work than they saved

[midlifeflyer]

Flying out of KFTG in Denver, ATC always issues me a SID.  Then, 90% of the time, they give me direct routing before I get to the first waypoint.  I think they just want to give me a path that's low-workload (for them) in case they get busy.

 

The only time I've ever been given a STAR was flying into KBJC in Seattle.  Being Seattle, it was IMC and, again I think they just wanted to be able to predict what was going to happen without worrying about it.  I had never flown one before and, I must confess, I didn't fly it all that well.  Probably caused them more work than they saved

PLAINS departure, Goodland Transition? 

 

Um... KBJC in Seattle??? When did they move Jeffco/Metro to Washington State? 

[jlunseth]

I am the same as flufflysheap.  SIDs practically every long trip in the flight levels.  STARs very rarely and probably by mistake at ATC, thinking I was a turboprop.

[RJBrown]

KBFI is Boeing Field. KBJC was Jefferson County now Rocky Mountain Metro. They are only 871 nautical miles apart.

[DonMuncy]

I think the reason we are given a STAR and then vectors is primarily for back-up in case of loss of communication. If you got nothing but vectors, what do you do with a radio failure. You could go direct to your first enroute fix, but it is cleaner for ATC to know that if it hits the fan, you will follow what is left of the STAR.

[kris_adams]

Personally, I never quite understood "No SID no STAR."

 

Yeah, me either.  I'm not sure about other radios, but the 430/530 load them right up and they're a piece of cake.  Interestingly enough, around Atlanta, all I get is the bunnI3 arrival.  I get a laugh out of the transition I normally get:  DUMBB.BUNNI3.

 

-Kris

[RJBrown]

From APA I always get the DENVER 6 departure which is vectors to assigned route.

 From the west or NW I usually get the TOMSN arrival that then gets morphed into radar vectors.

 Same for SW I am assigned LARKS but once on LARKS I end up with radar vectors. Same with Quail out of the SE.

They alway assign a STAR but I never stay on it long. All the STARs around here are set up to land at DEN, most going to the Falcon VOR. To keep me away from DEN traffic they all become Radar Vectors pretty early. LARKS gets pretty annoying when they slam dunk you way late. Center keeps you up high on LARKS. Once handed off to approach you get the slam dunk. I have been as high as 12,000 as late as over CASSI, the NDB on the 35R ILS , before given a decent.

[midlifeflyer]

Yeah, me either.  I'm not sure about other radios, but the 430/530 load them right up and they're a piece of cake.  Interestingly enough, around Atlanta, all I get is the bunnI3 arrival.  I get a laugh out of the transition I normally get:  DUMBB.BUNNI3.

 

-Kris

 

Most IFR GPS load them right up into the flight plan. As do some apps like ForeFlight.

[midlifeflyer]

From APA I always get the DENVER 6 departure which is vectors to assigned route.

 From the west or NW I usually get the TOMSN arrival that then gets morphed into radar vectors.

 Same for SW I am assigned LARKS but once on LARKS I end up with radar vectors. Same with Quail out of the SE.

They alway assign a STAR but I never stay on it long. All the STARs around here are set up to land at DEN, most going to the Falcon VOR. To keep me away from DEN traffic they all become Radar Vectors pretty early. LARKS gets pretty annoying when they slam dunk you way late. Center keeps you up high on LARKS. Once handed off to approach you get the slam dunk. I have been as high as 12,000 as late as over CASSI, the NDB on the 35R ILS , before given a decent.

 

Going south and north from APA, you're going to get DENVER (whatever number is current); eastbound, some transition off of PLAINS. is common.

 

Not much you can do about LARKS since they have to keep you high until clear of the mountains. ATC is used to dealing with pressurized aircraft capable of high descents rates on that one.

[fluffysheap]

KBFI is Boeing Field. KBJC was Jefferson County now Rocky Mountain Metro. They are only 871 nautical miles apart.

 

Yeah, that.  Not the first time I've made that mistake, either.  I say airport IDs and set my radios more or less at random most of the time.

[N33GG]

In the old days, SIDs and STARs were in a separate publication. For many years now, they are in the NOS charts and part of most any database with approaches. In the old days, No SIDS no Stars made sense... not so much now.

Flying smaller aircraft, such as Mooneys and light twins, I get SIDS and STARS all the time. File no SIDS no stars, you will get the same procedure anyway at many airports.

Also, Slam dunks are common, like them or not, at many airports. Can't really avoid them either. At certain airports, it's just going to happen. You aren't going to finesse the situation with clever requests. Houston Hobby and Burbank come to mind...

FWIW YMMV

[aviatoreb]

Also, Slam dunks are common, like them or not, at many airports. Can't really avoid them either. At certain airports, it's just going to happen. You aren't going to finesse the situation with clever requests. Houston Hobby and Burbank come to mind...

FWIW YMMV

 

Agreed - and sometimes at Boston airports.  Speed brakes become critical equipment for the slam dunk from the flight levels.

[Hondo]

Agreed - and sometimes at Boston airports.  Speed brakes become critical equipment for the slam dunk from the flight levels.

Boston is a great example, especially with a strong tailwind.  

Even if you extend the gear (assuming no speed brakes) and try to make an emergency descent,  you must avoid exceeding Vlo and excessive engine cooling.

For example, If you request 11000 to make the crossing and they don't give it in time, saying unable may be all you can do.

 

My instructor was being vectored into a thunderstorm over Houston.  He told ATC about the storm and after several requests for a heading change were denied he announced that he was turning 30 degrees to the right and then said "I solved my problem now let's solve yours."  There were no repercussions.