Comments on this C?

[cliffy]

Here's a link to a good article by LASAR

http://www.lasar.com/sales/buyers-guide.asp

[RangerJim]

Pre buy inspections have been covered many times on this forum and the search function will allow you to read posts by some incredibly knowledgeable and experienced old Mooney hands.  You will quickly learn the ins and outs of a pre buy and how to expand it in to a complete annual/100 hour Inspection.  This is free tuition and worth every second of your time.  The MAPA, LASAR, and Don Maxwell websites offer superb advice as well.  

 

Typically the pre buy is at your expense and will uncover any deal killer items and/or airworthiness discrepancies that should be the sellers financial responsibility to make right or you walk (run) away sadder, wiser, but not much poorer.  Non airworthiness discrepancies will be your responsibility to negotiate with the seller.  In any case since the M20C you are contemplating has 80 hours since the last annual/100 hour maintenance and inspection you will be money and time ahead paying to turn the pre buy into an annual since an AD requires an extensive lubrication every 100 hours or 12 months. The aircraft will already be partially open and on jacks at your expense so you are already much of the way there.  You will then have 12 months or 100 hours to enjoy your new craft with at least a modicum of peace of mind that you have done your due diligence.

 

Learning this stuff is at least half the fun of aircraft ownership and you won't find a better crew to work with anywhere in general aviation than right here.  My initial impression is that you are on to a keeper but you still have to do this right to protect you and yours.  

 

Good luck and be careful out there.

[Hank]

Cs are good planes. It is up to you to find a C in good mechanical condition; that's the purpose of the pre-buy.

Best wishes and good luck! Hope the C works out for you.

[mooniac15u]

Dave,

you are probably correct, or they are sitting on the shelf of some maintenance shop.

The funny thing is the only logs required are from the latest annual and any STC and 337's that affect the airworthiness of the aircraft. We put a lot of faith in "complete logs" and devalue the aircraft that are missing older logs, when the truth is one aircraft could have complete logs but have poorly or undocumented maintenance and another could be missing logs but have been better maintained.

Brian

 

You would also need documentation of compliance with any ADs.

[orionflt]

You would also need documentation of compliance with any ADs.

Documentation of AD compliance would be covered by the latest annual, that is a requirement for airworthiness.

[Jerry 5TJ]

Maxwell at KGGG is under an hour away by M20C for your pre-buy.

Keep in mind that if you happen to spend $1K at a pre-buy inspection and then walk away from the deal you probably just saved $20K so view it as a victory not a loss, and find another plane!

[mooniac15u]

Documentation of AD compliance would be covered by the latest annual, that is a requirement for airworthiness.

 

You might want to reread 91.417.  An annual may imply that all ADs have been complied with but the regulations say that you have to retain records of the method of compliance.

 

 

(a) Except for work performed in accordance with §§91.411 and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the following records for the periods specified in paragraph (b ) of this section:

 

 

(2) (v) The current status of applicable airworthiness directives (AD) and safety directives including, for each, the method of compliance, the AD or safety directive number and revision date. If the AD or safety directive involves recurring action, the time and date when the next action is required.

 

 

(b ) The owner or operator shall retain the following records for the periods prescribed:

 

 

(2) The records specified in paragraph (a)(2) of this section shall be retained and transferred with the aircraft at the time the aircraft is sold.

[orionflt]

You might want to reread 91.417.  An annual may imply that all ADs have been complied with but the regulations say that you have to retain records of the method of compliance.

 

 

(a) Except for work performed in accordance with §§91.411 and 91.413, each registered owner or operator shall keep the following records for the periods specified in paragraph (b ) of this section:

 

 

(2) (v) The current status of applicable airworthiness directives (AD) and safety directives including, for each, the method of compliance, the AD or safety directive number and revision date. If the AD or safety directive involves recurring action, the time and date when the next action is required.

 

 

(b ) The owner or operator shall retain the following records for the periods prescribed:

 

 

(2) The records specified in paragraph (a)(2) of this section shall be retained and transferred with the aircraft at the time the aircraft is sold.

That is absolutely correct, so in order to sign of the annual as airworthy that all must be complied with. thus my statement that documentation of AD compliance would be covered by the latest annual. If the IA is signing off the annual with out completing all of this then he could be subject to FAA sanctions. In real simple terms, If AD compliance is not properly documented and the inspector does not comply with the AD the aircraft is not airworthy. If he is signing it off anyway then its time to find a new shop.

[mooniac15u]

That is absolutely correct, so in order to sign of the annual as airworthy that all must be complied with. thus my statement that documentation of AD compliance would be covered by the latest annual. If the IA is signing off the annual with out completing all of this then he could be subject to FAA sanctions. In real simple terms, If AD compliance is not properly documented and the inspector does not comply with the AD the aircraft is not airworthy. If he is signing it off anyway then its time to find a new shop.

 

I’m sure you are a fine IA and I have no doubt that you do your due diligence in researching AD compliance.  However, that isn’t really what I was talking about.

 

I was addressing your earlier statement:

 

“the only logs required are from the latest annual and any STC and 337's that affect the airworthiness of the aircraft.”

 

Which isn’t entirely accurate with respect to 91.417.  The most recent annual entry in a logbook does not, by itself, fully meet the AD documentation requirements of 91.417.  As an owner, in order to meet the requirement of retaining documentation of method of compliance of ADs I would need to retain any logs with those entries.

 

If you are involved in an incident/accident related to the failure of a part that had been subject to an AD, the FAA will want to see your log books with full documentation of compliance with that AD.  If you can’t produce those logs then you are not in compliance and you risk FAA sanctions.  Presenting just the most recent annual inspection entry will not be sufficient.

[orionflt]

I’m sure you are a fine IA and I have no doubt that you do your due diligence in researching AD compliance.  However, that isn’t really what I was talking about.

 

I was addressing your earlier statement:

 

“the only logs required are from the latest annual and any STC and 337's that affect the airworthiness of the aircraft.”

 

Which isn’t entirely accurate with respect to 91.417.  The most recent annual entry in a logbook does not, by itself, fully meet the AD documentation requirements of 91.417.  As an owner, in order to meet the requirement of retaining documentation of method of compliance of ADs I would need to retain any logs with those entries.

 

If you are involved in an incident/accident related to the failure of a part that had been subject to an AD, the FAA will want to see your log books with full documentation of compliance with that AD.  If you can’t produce those logs then you are not in compliance and you risk FAA sanctions.  Presenting just the most recent annual inspection entry will not be sufficient.

LOL, I understand your point and we are saying the same thing, but you are just looking at part 91. If the annual was done and logged properly then all the AD compliance documentation has to be there for the aircraft to be considered airworthy, that means if any of the documentation is missing from the logs the AD has to be redone and documented prior to signing off the annual.

I know if you look in a majority of log books you see the blanket statement that "all AD have been complied with", that is just saying that the logs were reviewed for AD compliance and documentation and that all previously complied with directives are properly documented. for any new or recurring AD's you should see a sign off documenting their method of completion and results in the annual's log entry. Part 43.11 of the FARs covers documentation requirements in order to sign off an aircraft as airworthy, If all the criteria is not met then as quoted below a discrepancy list is to be given to the owner and must be corrected prior to the aircraft being released as airworthy. just because the previous IA may have signed off that all ADs were complied with, it doesn't negate the responsibility of the current inspector to ensure they were truly complied with and properly documented.

 

 (  Listing of discrepancies and placards. If the person performing any inspection required by part 91 or 125 or §135.411(a)(1) of this chapter finds that the aircraft is unairworthy or does not meet the applicable type certificate data, airworthiness directives, or other approved data upon which its airworthiness depends,  that persons must give the owner or lessee a signed and dated list of those discrepancies.

[acdc]

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