Anyone upgrading with Aspen PFDs?

[John Pleisse]

My avionics technician swears by the Apen and says any issues are almost soley installation issues. Just a PFD? the Aspen wins, hands down. PFD/MFD, the gloves are off. I agree Aspen's redundancey with the addition of the MFD is superior. However, I am banking on Garmin's ruthlessness, support and future compatibility issues.  I go in for the G500 3/1. Btw, Aspen's SVT is a grand off right now and it looks pretty clever.

[epsalant]

Quote: ProprAire

I just took delivery of my '77 M20J from it's annual and had an Aspen Pro EFD installed at KDKK.  The work was delayed a couple of weeks due to the shop reducing manpower and they had to go back to Aspen for a replacement remote sensor module.  However, the results seem to have been worth the wait.  I have about 14 hours behind the unit and am quite pleased with how it performs. 

I'm interested to know of any nuances, convenience features, etc., anyone may have stumbled on that aren't discussed in the owner's manual. 

[peter]

Quote: epsalant

I have an Aspen in my J.  Yes, there are some nuances which can mess you up.  I would advise that you do NOT fly in real IFR with the Aspen until you practice a lot with it.

[peter]

Quote: N4352H

My avionics technician swears by the Apen and says any issues are almost soley installation issues. Just a PFD? the Aspen wins, hands down. PFD/MFD, the gloves are off. I agree Aspen's redundancey with the addition of the MFD is superior. However, I am banking on Garmin's ruthlessness, support and future compatibility issues.  I go in for the G500 3/1. Btw, Aspen's SVT is a grand off right now and it looks pretty clever.

[mooniac58]

Quote: peter

I'd listen to your tech.  Ruthlessness won't get you back home when you have an electrical system or EFIS equipment failure. Redundancy and battery backups are good things. 

 Some of the posts here about Aspen PFD failures do make me a bit nervous so I am banking (literally) that with a good, solid install team behind my panel things will work as advertised.

Safety is always #1 for me and since Aspen (assuming they don't crap out on me!) provides a safer package with the multiple levels of redundancy in the system it was the choice I felt I had to make.  I was not aware the G500/600 units did not offer full AHARS redundancy until my installer explained this to me.  At least if I do have my PFD crap out like some of you talk about here, the MFD should be able to step in to save the day.  I won't lie - at first glance the G500 had a lot more "sex appeal" to me than the Aspen 3 tube layout - but when you actually set the two side by side and start hashing out the feature differences it got a lot easier to go with Aspen.  From what I gather Aspen as a company is also more eager to please their customers and do the right thing - something that Garmin lost on its path to mega-corporation status.

Thanks for the other tips from posters.  I planned on logging a LOT of time with the new panel before venturing into any IMC conditions, but it is nice to have some of the "gotchas" mentioned here like making sure to set the inbound course correctly on the approach.  I am pretty good at this habit already since my 430W unit is always bitching at me to set the CRS on the OBS to whatever heading is prudent for the curent leg.

[mooniac58]

Quote: fantom

WOW Craig, did you hit the lotto? That sounds like at least a 50 AMU investment.

What a wonderful set-up!

 Haha, I wish it were 50AMU - somewhere closer to 80 I think actually after I decided to add the Avidyne traffic.  At this point I have the mentality that I am in this aircraft for the long haul and am no longer looking at resale value - short of financial crisis I don't plan to ever sell her.  Instead I am just comparing it to the alternative, which would be something like an G1000 Ovation2 which would cost 150 AMU more than my total investment into this M20J.  While it would be a sounder investment to spend that extra $150K - I don't have it and I hate financing anything - plus the operating costs (annuals, overhauls, fuel burn) are much steeper than my J model. 

Before this new avionics investment I was already in so deep with new paint, interior, Hartzel 2 blade top-prop, Garmin stack and EDM-900 that even if I wanted to step up to an Ovation with glass - selling my J for the down payment would have netted me a huge loss and made me sick.  I guess once you get deep enough into these projects it is better to just keep working towards your dream setup and have the mindset that you will fly the aircraft long enough to recoup your investment.

The M20J/K in my very humble opinion is such a wonderful balance of speed and efficiency that no modern aircraft can touch - it seems logical to take this great design and bring it up to modern standards in terms of looks and avionics.  I doubt the resell market will see it this way of course

[TLSDriver]

Does the Avidyne play on the Aspen?  Did you look at any other traffic systems?  

Thanks

David

 

[jelswick]

I know some on here mentioned delays in delivery and that's unfortunately what I've grown to expect with major upgrades, so I wanted to let everyone know if you are anywhere close or reasonable flying distance to them, Ron Collins Aviation Electronics in Henderson, KY (right across the river from Evansville, IN for commercial flights in and out when dropping off/picking up your aircraft) was both on time and on budget on the estimates they provided me for adding the Aspens, an STec 30 autopilot, moving things around in my panel and redoing the panel (strip, paint and silk screen).  I'm impressed and I believe they deserve at least my word of mouth recommendation.  I'm picking her up on Friday and they sent photos (glareshield and final placarding will be tomorrow).  Can't wait to get her back and finding a shop that hits schedule and their quote warrants me going back there for any future upgrades (about a 1.75 hr flight for me from Columbus).  Very happy camper so far!  One photo here and  I'll post the others to the gallery.

 

[peter]

Quote: TLSDriver

Does the Avidyne play on the Aspen?  Did you look at any other traffic systems?  

Thanks

David

 

[jelswick]

Brought the Mooney home to Ohio today with the new Aspens, STec 30, shifting things around in the panel and strip and repaint of the panel by Ron Collins Aviation, Henderson, KY.  Thrilled with the job they did and having 45T home!  I put up video and photos of the flight home (a few out of season photos of 45T to show the exterior) on YouTube this afternoon with the link below.

[ProprAire]

Jim,

Great shot of the new panel in flight.  Congrats on being a very satisfied customer.  Couldn't  help notice your stock CHT guage was reading a bit low.  Mine does the same from time to time.  I don't worry about it because the EDM 700 is much more accurate. 

Dan

[peter]

I just want to know what all that white stuff is on the ground. 

[jelswick]

Thank you Dan and Peter.  Had a great flight home with it!  What great avionics Peter; you should be very proud of what you helped to put together!  I agree Dan, I've had that issue with the stock CHT guage for a while and with the EDM 700, my mechanic (that I love; even called today to make sure I made it home fine today knowing the weather and what we were working with last night on the fine tuning of the gear bypass switch last night) has said, not to worry with EDM 700's accuracy.  He's tried a few things to correct that, but it seems to have a schizophrenic personality. 

That white stuff is Indiana and Ohio in the winter time!    I love flying over snow and told my wife that is one of my favorite times to fly for the beauty of it and yet have to be so careful about when to fly due to icing.  I filed to put myself in the clouds for the practice, but knew where the bases were so that I knew I could get out of it if need be; if that wasn't an option in the forecast, I'd still be in Henderson right now and fine with that.  I picked up trace rime at 5,000 and just asked for lower to get out of it and then fine.  If the bases are not where I can easily get out of the visible moisture, then I don't go.  Too fun, love the avionics you helped develop Peter and thank God to be blessed with such a wonderful machine.  I love the one person's tag on here that refers to himself of the "caretaker of ...(tail number)".  That's exactly what I feel like and couldn't be more thankful to have this wonderful gift in N1145T.  I hope the next owner that gets her when I retire from flying (hopefully I'm very, very old at that point) appreciates her as much!

[Cruiser]

What were you configured for in the flight? I watched the video but it was hard to see the details. The ride looks a little bumpy. Looks like 5000' and 25x2500 and 158 kts? Is that about right?

I am in KPCW and would love to fly down to get a closer look at your new panel.

[mooniac58]

Yesterday I got to sit down with Santa Fe Aero and design my panel in their CAD application.  Some things are going to shift around a little as far as minor switches, etc go - but the key avionics will remain where they are.

I found the B&W line printout a litle boring so I brought it into Photoshop and insterted images of my avionics components that I found online.  The attached image is more or less what my panel should look like after the job.

Now I just have to find the patience to wait 5 weeks for the job to finish up.  They are doing a lot of avionics work, my annual and a complete tank reseal on my left tank which has been leaking like crazy for 3+ years.

[Piloto]

Craig

I noticed that you have no barometric airspeed indicator or altimeter on your panel layout. Not that I would not trust the triple redundancy of the Aspen but that of its power source (alternator, battery). I have been hit by lightning at the prop and can tell you that the first thing to go is the alternator and battery relay. Luckily I had vacuum gyros and conventional instruments and was able to continue safe flight but no radios or LORAN. The most important instrument in an airplane is the airspeed indicator. It is essentially your lift indicator. Without it would be very difficult to land specially at night. An airspeed indicator may look old fashion but because of its simplicity and total independence is 1000 times more reliable than any electronic indicator. On an electronic indicator such as Aspen, Garmin or Honeywell the air pressure is conveyed to the pilot via thousands of transistors, lines of code an LCD display that could be corrupted by an electric discharge or an overheat condition. On an ASI the pressure is conveyed via a simple metal diaphragm with a needle attached to it. Don't overlook the simplicity and reliabilty of steam gauges, they will keep you safe.

Jose

[peter]

Quote: Piloto

Craig

I noticed that you have no barometric airspeed indicator or altimeter on your panel layout. Not that I would not trust the triple redundancy of the Aspen but that of its power source (alternator, battery). I have been hit by lightning at the prop and can tell you that the first thing to go is the alternator and battery relay. Luckily I had vacuum gyros and conventional instruments and was able to continue safe flight but no radios or LORAN. The most important instrument in an airplane is the airspeed indicator. It is essentially your lift indicator. Without it would be very difficult to land specially at night. An airspeed indicator may look old fashion but because of its simplicity and total independence is 1000 times more reliable than any electronic indicator. On an electronic indicator such as Aspen, Garmin or Honeywell the air pressure is conveyed to the pilot via thousands of transistors, lines of code an LCD display that could be corrupted by an electric discharge or an overheat condition. On an ASI the pressure is conveyed via a simple metal diaphragm with a needle attached to it. Don't overlook the simplicity and reliabilty of steam gauges, they will keep you safe.

Jose

[M016576]

Quote: Piloto

Craig

I noticed that you have no barometric airspeed indicator or altimeter on your panel layout. Not that I would not trust the triple redundancy of the Aspen but that of its power source (alternator, battery). I have been hit by lightning at the prop and can tell you that the first thing to go is the alternator and battery relay. Luckily I had vacuum gyros and conventional instruments and was able to continue safe flight but no radios or LORAN. The most important instrument in an airplane is the airspeed indicator. It is essentially your lift indicator. Without it would be very difficult to land specially at night. An airspeed indicator may look old fashion but because of its simplicity and total independence is 1000 times more reliable than any electronic indicator. On an electronic indicator such as Aspen, Garmin or Honeywell the air pressure is conveyed to the pilot via thousands of transistors, lines of code an LCD display that could be corrupted by an electric discharge or an overheat condition. On an ASI the pressure is conveyed via a simple metal diaphragm with a needle attached to it. Don't overlook the simplicity and reliabilty of steam gauges, they will keep you safe.

Jose

[ProprAire]

i'm all about diversification in my Mooney's instrument suite; just like a financial portfolio, better to not have all the eggs in one basket!

[sleepingsquirrel]

Hi,

 I believe in progress, and the new stuff is wonderful but still secondary/non -existent in my stage of evolution. I work with medical equipment and since 1993 have been observing intermittent RFI/EMI problems from intentional as well as unintentional transmitters. Over the last decade medical equipment manufacturers have become more aware and hardened their devices.

 The lesson for me was that it's not the obvious reboot or lock up that gets you in trouble. It is the subtle misinformation due to some slight momentary alignment of the planets when your cell phone jumps to high power and interacts with other electronic equipment without it being obvious. I had to force myself to read senate hearings discussing these effects concerning PEDs. I haven't flown commercial airliners for a while. I bet they still demand all PED (personal electronic devices) be turned off for flight below certian levels and certian phases of flight. It struck me that the rolling reboots you guys mentioned could be caused by EMI/RFI from other electronics. As much as we try to make science of of these interactions there is still a little VooDoo going on which sometimes defies explaination. Even hardened equipment has sweet spots for EMI/RFI.

  Personally if I was IFR and using glass for an approach I would first turn off my cell phone,  laptops. I pods ,game boys, mp3 players, and back up GPS/glass cockpit would be put in a farady cage (with an external antenna) it would still be available for use.

Maybe if one were to cleanse the cockpit of all portable electronic devices the reboots/unexplained glitches might stop. Then add the items one at a time to see if statistically anything changes . Keep in mind that the problem may not manifest itself until a combination of two items set up a beat frequency which is the problem.

Airliners kill hundreds of people at a time making big news, someone demands action. General aviation kills one to six at a time, medicine kills one at a time , just doesn't grab headlines . 

 You just don't want to be in those numbers ,however small,if it can be avoided, When the Saint Go Marching In.

Please forgive me if I'm saying something already obvious to the trained, experienced, glass cockpit users. I have felt your pain for the last decade+  in medical electronics.

 

[jelswick]

You're welcome down here at KDLZ (Delaware Muncipal, just north of Columbus, OH) anytime you'd like Cruiser.  I had it most of the flight at 25" and 2500 RPM.  Someone from Mooney at Oshkosh had told me a few years ago that this was the sweet spot for cruise from a performance and vibration standpoint for these and firewalled on the throttle if higher where you can't get 25", so I typically run it at that.  Fuel burn was running at about 12.5 at 3,000 where I was at times and 11.7-12 at 5,000.  I was getting 158 KIAS and 159 TAS at 3,000 and at 5,000 I was getting 155 KIAS and 163 TAS.  I liked the 180 kt groundspeeds I was seeing part of the time at 5,000 as well. 

It actually didn't feel bumpy at all.  I'm thinking the bumpiness in the video may have been the fact I was taking the pics with just one hand and not looking through the viewfinder.  Without having a 2nd pilot in the other seat, I didn't feel comfortable doing that, so there were about as many throw away photos as there were ones that were worth keeping.  Hopefully I can get a friend here at DLZ that flies a Super Viking up with me over the next few weeks with a real video camera that should be a lot clearer and would allow me or him to focus on taping instead of the flying.

Hopefully, we'll be at KPCW in the next few months for Phil's Inn spaghetti!      

[Piloto]

Sleeping Squirrel

What you describe can even happens even with all the gadgets off. I have seen screen lock-up on approach due to RFI from the VHF comm on some tower frequencies. The problem is that you think you still line-up on final when in fact it is a frozen image, with airspeed and altitude readings also frozen. During the installation of these devices it is important that antenna cables from VHF coms and transponder be well separated from the data links wires or coupling can occur when transmitting. Steam gauges are inmune to this since there is no software to lock-up. I am a fan of electronic gadgets but safety and reliabilty are before a hi-tech look. If the failure of an electronic display is not going to impair the safety of flight I am fine with it.

Jose

 

[peter]

So, I'm having some deja vu on this conversation - I think we beat this one to death here:  http://www.mooneyspace.com/index.cfm?page=2&mainaction=posts&forumid=1&threadid=1866#post20167

I guess we'll just need to agree to disagree.  Obviously, you can always add more redundancy and more disimilarity in your airplane's cockpit to further enhance the aircraft's immunity to rare failure events.  At some point the added safety benefits become very small in relationship to the baseline safety of the overall system.  Improving a failure event probability  from one-in-a-billion to one-in-ten-billion is admirable, but in reality both numbers are very, very small.  Ultimately you get to a point where the biggest impact of adding more redundancy is to reduce overall aircraft reliability because now there are more things that can fail.

Aspen's approach has been to provide a system and architecture that mitigates the effect of common failure events (vacuum pump, alternator, display failures) so that they are non-events, and to provide a robust design that is tolerant to uncommon environmental events (EMI, HIRF, lightning immunity).  We provide the operator with an option to remove older mechanical equipment, but the operator can choose to retain anything they want. 

Eventually, in a Mooney (and most other GA aircraft) we have all accepted the premise that putting our eggs in one basket is ok, after all, these are single engine, single pilot aircraft. 

[Piloto]

Love it Peter

I admire your well intentions and efforts to provide the best product, and I am sure it is. But the fact is that on this thread I have read more on reboots and lock-ups than on engine failures. Can you imagine a new engine in the market with similar problems? I do realize vacuum gyros have their issues but it is not the case for pneumatic airspeed indicators, altimeters, VSI or a whisky compass. Would you replace the control surface push rods for a fly-by-wire system because it is a high tech thing? 

Jose

 

 

[Cruiser]

Peter,

Do you have any info on how many of these units that are reported malfunctioning in the field end up at the factory warranty department NDF? When is Aspen going to start offering reconditioned units?

I hear what Jose is saying but these sound like installation issues not unit failures. What is the current failure rate xx/1000 units?

Also, I am curious to know, if these units are effected by EMI, RFI or lightening, with a PFD/MFD combo would both units be subject to the same failure at the same time if in different modes? i.e will DuoSafe protect against this fault?