Landings

[robert7467]

Lets not make this a bashing thread. Sat went up and tried 75 mph short final, compared to 80 before, and it worked magic. Landed to get fuel with 10 knot headwind, and she set down perfectly. Then coming back to a towered airport they had me come in on the preferred runway, with a 5 knot tail wind, and she set down perfect. So 75 is the magic number. Did some instrument time with inop instrument training, and unusual attitudes, and stayed within tolerances. Flight instructor is having me stay within 50ft during steep, standard turns, and 100 strait and level. I should be good to go for checkride soon, and I have met all the requirements except for 30 mins of instrument. Then after ppl, I am going to work instrument and commercial under the same syllabus. This has so far been a great adventure.

[jetdriven]

Great, Robert.  The correct VREF depends on weight, winds, and flap setting.  If you are solo and really low on fuel, you can go to 70. I typically use 72 ovee the threshold myself.  But you must be highly aware of decaying airspeed and correct immediately for it.

[carusoam]

Byron, just for the record, can you state your total time, for reference purposes?

Your the best!

Best regards,

-a-

[robert7467]

I agree. I noticed the speed seemed to bleed off a little faster, but now I know, normal winds, I can do 80 mph, and with headwind or tailwind try 75. It's all a learning curve, and it takes a while to master the airplane.

[robert7467]

Around 84 hrs.

[Wildhorsesracing]

I bought Donald Kaye's video about landings and it helped tremendously.  I have also found that the best range is 70-75 mph over the numbers and it'll settle in nicely.

[robert7467]

Beautifully

[jetdriven]

Byron, just for the record, can you state your total time, for reference purposes?

Your the best!

Best regards,

-a-

 

9235.

Not including 400 hours of level "D" simulator time.

[robert7467]

9235 in small planes, or a little bit of everything?

[jetdriven]

1200 single engine fixed gear. 500 complex singles. 700 piston twin. 

3000 Beech 1900D (1k PIC), 2350 CRJ (all PIC), 1500  in 747-200, half of that PIC.

 

 I was a CFI before going off to burn Kerosene. I didnt know any better, i was 25 square ROP, the whole bit. I didnt fly small planes for ten years, and then we bought an M20J.  gas was 5$.  I read a lot, as well.  Coming from airline flying, I have learned to apply some of those practices to small airplanes.  Some work great (stabilized approaches, LOP, trend monitoring) , some don't apply.

[BigTex]

Just to complete the bio... How much Mooney time?

[jetdriven]

About 230-240.

[Skywarrior]

I agree. I noticed the speed seemed to bleed off a little faster, but now I know, normal winds, I can do 80 mph, and with headwind or tailwind try 75. It's all a learning curve, and it takes a while to master the airplane.

 

Robert -

 

Your understanding of the relationship between headwind/tailwind and landing speed is off a bit.

 

There isn't any.

 

75 mph is a good speed to use on final on a no-wind day, and it's a good speed to use with a headwind or a tailwind. Headwind or tailwind has *no effect* on your choice of short-final airspeed. Your plane's airspeed indicator doesn't know and doesn't care whether you have a headwind or a tailwind.

 

Crosswinds, however, are a different story. You need to be carrying a bit more speed, and a bit less flaps, so that your forward speed is comfortably faster than the 'sideways' velocity that the crosswind is imposing on you.

 

 

A headwind *does* make a difference in how much pavement you use up when you land. You'll usually use less.

 

And a tailwind will usually cause you to use up *more* pavement.

 

 

Frankly, I think your instructor is doing you a disservice. He should be telling you all the things we on the board have been telling you.

[Oscar Avalle]

Robert,

 

Congratulations! Just be careful with gusty approaches. Where I live I have to deal normally with 18+ knots winds and gusts of 25+. So I always try to come in with a bit of margin to compensate for them.

 

Oscar 

[robert7467]

I agree, every situation is different, and I understand I will always be learning. If something just doesn't feel right, whether its logic, or gut feeling, I immediately do a go around.

[TWinter]

Robert,

 

Congratulations! Just be careful with gusty approaches. Where I live I have to deal normally with 18+ knots winds and gusts of 25+. So I always try to come in with a bit of margin to compensate for them.

 

Oscar 

Oscar, You are a better man than me. I would hate to deal with that on a regular basis..I guess you learn to adapt, but as a old pilot, but yet really a newer Mooney pilot I think that those winds would take getting use to. I'm still just a "fair weather/wind"  weekend pilot..LOL..gusts at 25+ regularly, no thanks. I am getting better though. The new motto, if it does not break me (or hurt my plane), it will make me a better pilot.

[Marauder]

Robert, Congratulations! Just be careful with gusty approaches. Where I live I have to deal normally with 18+ knots winds and gusts of 25+. So I always try to come in with a bit of margin to compensate for them. Oscar

I can deal with the strong winds but throw in a crosswind with gusts, not a lot of fun. And Oscar is correct, there is a "wind factor" that you need to add in to your approach speed when dealing with gusty conditions.

[AndyFromCB]

Robert,

 

Congratulations! Just be careful with gusty approaches. Where I live I have to deal normally with 18+ knots winds and gusts of 25+. So I always try to come in with a bit of margin to compensate for them.

 

Oscar 

 

Same way here in Iowa, wide open prairie, and airport on top of the hill, too, so a big downdraft about 1/4 mile on final. It's funny watching pilots lands. At KCBF, I always fly my final 1 notch above the glide slope and it works out perfect every time. I land better when it's windy and or gusty. The only time I ever had the dreaded, bounce, bounce, bounce, go around was on a perfectly calm day. I just could not get the picture in my head figured out.

 

Long body speeds seem to be identical to lower weight mooneys, just in knots instead of mph. My short final at full landing weight, 3200 is best flown at 75knots, when it's just me and quarter fuel, 70 works much better.

[scottfromiowa]

_{Does anyone ever choose to land with a tailwind?  I don't do tailwinds except on the rare occasion (less than 6 landings) when wind shifts.  My plane floats like crazy with a tailwind...}

[robert7467]

I always land with a headwind, except in KNQA runway 22 is the prefered runway due to the ILS approach, and sometimes they will have me land on 22 with a light tailwind.

[scottfromiowa]

Great, Robert.  The correct VREF depends on weight, winds, and flap setting.  If you are solo and really low on fuel, you can go to 70. I typically use 72 ovee the threshold myself.  But you must be highly aware of decaying airspeed and correct immediately for it.

I fly short final at 80MPH primarily because there is an 80 on my speedo (outer# and with full flaps VSO-57 or No flaps VS-67) and the number is easy to scan/pick-up easily.  Once runway is "made" I am power off.

 

Knots or MPH above Byron? 1.2 VSO is 68MPH for my M20E and that is where I am over the numbers...or I just let it slow if a little fast in round out before flare.

[Oscar Avalle]

Oscar, You are a better man than me. I would hate to deal with that on a regular basis..I guess you learn to adapt, but as a old pilot, but yet really a newer Mooney pilot I think that those winds would take getting use to. I'm still just a "fair weather/wind"  weekend pilot..LOL..gusts at 25+ regularly, no thanks. I am getting better though. The new motto, if it does not break me (or hurt my plane), it will make me a better pilot.

Naw...you just get used to it... the solution is just to factor in the gust and keep the approach above the glideslope... However, as m,entioned by astelmaszek, once you get used to it, you start having problems landing in fair weather....

[201er]

1200 single engine fixed gear. 500 complex singles. 700 piston twin. 

3000 Beech 1900D (1k PIC), 2350 CRJ (all PIC), 1500  in 747-200, half of that PIC.

 

 I was a CFI before going off to burn Kerosene. I didnt know any better, i was 25 square ROP, the whole bit. I didnt fly small planes for ten years, and then we bought an M20J.  gas was 5$.  I read a lot, as well.  Coming from airline flying, I have learned to apply some of those practices to small airplanes.  Some work great (stabilized approaches, LOP, trend monitoring) , some don't apply.

 

"So you are a little lamb who has come to Clouseau for to learn."

[Seth]

Robert-

 

Glad the slower over the fence speed is working for you.  I want to make sure you know anothr "Gotcha."  Besides the cross wind techinque of carrying extra speed (airspeed, not ground speed, as mentioned by an earlier poster) you mentioned that you sometimes land with a tailwind due to the preferred runway at a towered airport.  Landing with a tailwind simply means your relative speed to the ground is faster and and you will be pushed down the runway, so understand that the landing and lanidng roll will eat up more runway.  The important aspect is it will seem faster to you - do not pull power to compensate - if you get too slow with a tailwind, you will lose your lift and stall/slam in too early.  Make sure your airspeed is on. 

 

Whenever I land with a tailwind, I double and tripple check the airspeed indicator because my mind is telling me I'm coming in too fast because groundspeed wise I'm about 10-20 knots faster than usual over the threshold - 75 MPH +5 knows (80 MPH) instead of 75 MPH-10/15 (60-65 MPH).  Your brain will try to make you pull power and stall - make sure you hold the right airspeed regardless of ground speed.

 

Separately, I apologize on behalf of all of MooneySpace for the "bashing" that you felt you recieved on earlier posts.  We're actually a pretty good group of knowledgeable pilots, but as most pilots, even though some may be smaller than others (I'm going to get quoted for that one) we all have egos and many think thier way/techniques/procedures are best - and they may be for certain situations.  Thank you for sharing with us all and reaching out.  We're actually a lot better than many other websites and forums.  Do you know how to tell when there is a pilot in the room?  He tells you (or she tells you).

 

I'm still in the young boat with 796 total hours but have experienced enough to have some grey hair (a lot) but also still have a lot to learn.  Glad your getting your IFR next.  Good luck with your PPL checkride!

 

-Seth

[Seth]

Naw...you just get used to it... the solution is just to factor in the gust and keep the approach above the glideslope... However, as m,entioned by astelmaszek, once you get used to it, you start having problems landing in fair weather....

 

Correct!  In no wind landings I personally know I don't concentrate quite as hard - often my best landings are with gusty and/or crosswinds due to the higher required concentration.

 

-Seth