Prop strike inspection vs smoh

[aaronk25]

Question: when my prop strike inspection was done last msy could that have easily been a field overhaul? They replaced all the main bearings, magnafluxed the crank, replaced the cam and inspected and measured the rest of the engine components for wear. 3 out of 4 cylinders were in new specs with the 4th at top end of service limits. With isn't a field overhaul very similar?

My engine is about 1400sfrm, but could this 10k worth of work count as a field overhaul?

[N601RX]

Overhaul is a very subjective term. You can call about anything an overhaul. There is no requirement to replace anything, you can just measure and inspect everything and put it back together. That's why its very important to save reciepts on field overhauls so you can prove what was done. They are not all the same. Most people are going to want to see where the cylinders, steel parts and case were sent out as well as a list of all parts replaced.

[Alan Fox]

No , overhauls are very specific about what is replaced ,case recertified, all bearings , all steel parts magged , new rod bolts / nuts , new case through bolts , new rings , pistons , exhaust valves , fuel system overhauled , Mags overhauled , Prop gov overhauled.....  Just curious why a lycoming was torn down for a prop strike inspection.....It is not required on a non counterbalance lycoming as per prop strike AD......

[Alan Fox]

Overhaul is a very subjective term. You can call about anything an overhaul. There is no requirement to replace anything, you can just measure everything and put it back together. That's why its very important to save reciepts on field overhauls so you can prove what was done.

That is incorrect , All stretch bolts must be replaced , exhaust valves must be replaced , All steel and aluminum must be ndt inspected.....Overhaul is not subjective , it is layed out in the fars...

[jetdriven]

IIRC you legally only must inspect the crankshaft gear retaining bolt for damage on a prop strike inspection. However, insurance companies will pay to split the case because of the unknown condition of the crankshaft.  Lycoming publishes a document that details all items that are mandatory to replace for an overhaul, its called SB240V.

 

I will tell you a shadetree overhaul, a name shop overhaul, and a Lycoming factory overhaul have many differences.   The costs are ~ 13K, 18K, and 26K, respectively.  But no shadetree overhaul is going to have new cylinders, roller cam, new case, etc. 

[N601RX]

Because it is the safe thing to do and the insurance will pay for it. All the things mentioned above are good things to replace, but can you show me the requirements to replace any of them?

The term overhaul is very subjective. Start calling shops and asking for a list of parts they replace. Most reputable shops are going to follow SB240, but its just a service bulletin.

[aaronk25]

Was just curious. Bolduc engines in MN did the work and I payed extra for the cam and lifters as he said they would need to be replaced probably in the next couple hundred hours. The engine was 1,200 then now 1,450 sfrm.

What got me thinking about field overhaul (and I should have discussed before the prop strike inspection) is how much more would it have cost to have it count as a feild overhaul.

The shop manager went though a bunch of specs and commented that the engine was in really good shape and we discussed planning running another 2,000 hours if which they thought was very possible subject to cylinders, but what what was inside the case looked great.

Probably to late or alot of money to overhaul now but, was thinking if I listed it for sale (to start looking for a 252) it would be nice to realize a bit of the value since it got new bearings cam ECT, and isn't just a 1450sfrm engine as it eliminates alot of the guesswork as to truly what condition the engine is in.

I was talking to someone at my airport about the plane last week and there response was they were looking for less engine time.

[N601RX]

In all likelyhood your bottom end did get a overhaul. The crank was checked, its very likely the rods were also. You also purchased a new cam and lifters. Do you know if the oil pump gears,housing and driveshaft were replaced? If so that pretty much covers the bottom end overhaul. Obviously your accessories, cylinders and pistons were checked and reused, but these are things that can be changed later on a as needed basis.

[tony]

No , overhauls are very specific about what is replaced ,case recertified, all bearings , all steel parts magged , new rod bolts / nuts , new case through bolts , new rings , pistons , exhaust valves , fuel system overhauled , Mags overhauled , Prop gov overhauled.....  Just curious why a lycoming was torn down for a prop strike inspection.....It is not required on a non counterbalance lycoming as per prop strike AD......

 

No that’s not correct. An overhaul has to be done per approved FAA overhaul procedure. Each overhaul shop can have its own overhaul procedures that are approved by the FAA. Different shops can have different procedures so not all overhauls are the same.  According to the Lycoming overhaul manual  http://pj260.com/Lycoming/Overhaul%20Manuals/60294-9.pdf (which is also approved data) the only thing that is required to be changed are the seals.  If you read this manual, during an overhaul you only have to change the parts that are damaged including through bolts.  So it’s it very arbitrary.

. 

[PTK]

?

[PTK]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="jetdriven" data-cid="87544" data-time="1358391052"><p>

IIRC you legally only must inspect the crankshaft gear retaining bolt for damage on a prop strike inspection. However, insurance companies will pay to split the case because of the unknown condition of the crankshaft. Lycoming publishes a document that details all items that are mandatory to replace for an overhaul, its called SB240V.<br />

<br />

I will tell you a shadetree overhaul, a name shop overhaul, and a Lycoming factory overhaul have many differences. The costs are ~ 13K, 18K, and 26K, respectively. But no shadetree overhaul is going to have new cylinders, roller cam, new case, etc.</p></blockquote>

...and that makes the factory oh a bargain!

[John Pleisse]

If you end up with an insurance job, consider looting the engine reserve to go all the way with an overhaul. In this case (pardon the pun), you would be 1400 SFRM and 0 since prop strike. If for any reason you had to unload the plane, I think you would get the extra $8k back you spent going above the insurance money for the overhaul, creating a zero time engine and attractive to buyers.

 

I know your engine is safe and would go another 2000 hours, but would a buyer? Isn't this why the question was asked? For valuation purposes?

 

I say, if you have a prop strike passed half tbo, add your funds and create a zero time engine. 

[Seth]

Bolduc is where I had my engine overhauled when I purchased the Missile.  Darrell Buldoc stands by his engines and when I had an issue at 100 hours with two of the cylidners, without quesiton, even though due to a misunderstanding earlier in the process (you can search on that from an earlier thread or PM me) he covered the two cylinders and really worked with me for the other issues.

 

I think if you call Bulduc, ask for Darrell, and explain to him your thoughts, he may be able to provide you with guidance.  Who knows, he may provide a detailed letter as to the work they did, or even may have you fly it to MN (so it doesn't have to come off the airplane again) and complete the final work to make it an overhaul (that may not be feasabile depending on how many hours you've put on since the work). 

 

Explain to him what you are looking for, and I'm sure Darrell will work with you or let you know what he can legally state to assist with selling the airplane (should you end up selling).

 

Good luck.

 

-Seth

[jetdriven]

<blockquote class='ipsBlockquote'data-author="jetdriven" data-cid="87544" data-time="1358391052"><p>

IIRC you legally only must inspect the crankshaft gear retaining bolt for damage on a prop strike inspection. However, insurance companies will pay to split the case because of the unknown condition of the crankshaft. Lycoming publishes a document that details all items that are mandatory to replace for an overhaul, its called SB240V.<br />

<br />

I will tell you a shadetree overhaul, a name shop overhaul, and a Lycoming factory overhaul have many differences. The costs are ~ 13K, 18K, and 26K, respectively. But no shadetree overhaul is going to have new cylinders, roller cam, new case, etc.</p></blockquote>

...and that makes the factory oh a bargain!

 

Not really a bargain, but "more for more.".   You can tear down an engine, measure everything within service limits, and reassemble it and call it an "overhaul", but I bet you it won't run 2000 hours. 

[N601RX]

IIRC you legally only must inspect the crankshaft gear retaining bolt for damage on a prop strike inspection. However, insurance companies will pay to split the case because of the unknown condition of the crankshaft.  Lycoming publishes a document that details all items that are mandatory to replace for an overhaul, its called SB240V.

 

I will tell you a shadetree overhaul, a name shop overhaul, and a Lycoming factory overhaul have many differences.   The costs are ~ 13K, 18K, and 26K, respectively.  But no shadetree overhaul is going to have new cylinders, roller cam, new case, etc. 

Don't forget those horrible Slick mags.

[jetdriven]

We already took care of the Slicks. I am a Bendix man.

[PTK]

IIRC you legally only must inspect the crankshaft gear retaining bolt for damage on a prop strike inspection. However, insurance companies will pay to split the case because of the unknown condition of the crankshaft.  Lycoming publishes a document that details all items that are mandatory to replace for an overhaul, its called SB240V.

 

I will tell you a shadetree overhaul, a name shop overhaul, and a Lycoming factory overhaul have many differences.   The costs are ~ 13K, 18K, and 26K, respectively.  But no shadetree overhaul is going to have new cylinders, roller cam, new case, etc. 

 

I don't know Byron! 26K for Lycoming factory sure does sound like a bargain to me! I was under the impression that a factory oh exchange was in the low to mid 30's, and a rebuilt exchange in the upper 30's! At 26K I'll order a factory engine today! Is that a typo?

[Alan Fox]

[Alan Fox]

All engine oil hose

All oil seals

All gaskets

All circlips, lockplates and retaining rings

Piston rings

All exhaust valves (except Inconel alloy valves)

All exhaust valve retaining keys

Crankshaft sludge tubes (where applicable)

Cylinder fin stabilizers

All bearing inserts (main and connecting rods)

Magneto drive cushions

Stressed bolts and fastenings

Camshaft gear attaching bolts

Connecting rod bolts and nuts

Crankshaft flange bolts

Damaged ignition cable

All laminated shims

Crankshaft counterweight bushings

Piston pin plugs

A.C. diaphragm fuel pump........................... Here is the list of parts that I copied from Tonys link that have to be replaced reguardless of condition.....  Try reading your own post GENIOUS.........section 3 of LYCOMING overhaul manual...

[N601RX]

1st of all our engines use the direct drive overhaul manual, not the 76 overhaul manual.   If you will read the section directly above all the stuff you have posted you will see that it uses the word recommended, not required.  Don't get me wrong, all of the things should be replaced, but are by no means mandatory.  The word overhaul is very subjective.  As Tony said, you are required to replace the gaskets.

 

3-44. Arbitrary Replacement of Parts. It is recommended
that certain parts throughout the engine be replaced at
normal overhaul regardless of their apparent condition.
Consult the latest edition of Service Bulletin No. 240 for
information on the replacing of parts at overhaul. Included
among these are the following:
3-

[Alan Fox]

I am not getting you wrong , you are wrong , the manual references service bulletin #240 , please read 240....http://www.lycoming.com/support/publications/service-bulletins/pdfs/SB240V.pdf  IT IS MANDATORY!!!!

[gregwatts]

I'm convinced!

[N601RX]

No its not. 240 is a service bulletin issued by lycoming. The fact that lycoming stamped Mandatory on it means nothing as for as the FAA is concered. The FAA has repeadily issued clarifications over the years that service bulletins are not mandatory. If you don't believe it just Google "Mandatory Service Bulletins".

http://www.avweb.com/avwebflash/briefs/service_bulletin_193095-1.html

[jetdriven]

 

I don't know Byron! 26K for Lycoming factory sure does sound like a bargain to me! I was under the impression that a factory oh exchange was in the low to mid 30's, and a rebuilt exchange in the upper 30's! At 26K I'll order a factory engine today! Is that a typo?

Our price was 27,862 plus 650$ in freight.  The rebuilt zero time engine was 2500$ more IIRC.

[PTK]

Time out!

SB 240W, which supersedes 240V, is FAA approved.

You may proceed and resume!