M20F-1968 Posted June 25, 2012 Report Posted June 25, 2012 I just finished reading the thread "legal Action Against a Certain Shop in Florida" and decided to start this thread. Having been the vicitim of some unscrupulous mechanics in Texas I have to support the idea of a forum where objective and factual stories can be posted, showing both the good and the bad. I was new to this industry 8 years ago and was quite surprised to see the variability (to be polite) in the levels of competence, integrity and honesty acress the various A&P mechanics from which we as owners have to choose. I was surprised at how inconsistently an A&P or IA certification translates into what an owner may or may not expect in terms of competency. That is to say nothing of honesty and integrity. I think that an "Angie's List" devoted to A&P mechanics would be helpful. No one would complain about the listing of "Kudos" for the shops who all know and love. If owners can stick to objective experiences in their description of their bad experiences, that can be helpful as well for all of us. If one owner had a bad experience. and several owners post good experiences with the same shop, the truth will show as an average of all the responses. I would like to see such a section created on this forum. I would likie to hear if there are other owners who feel that this would be helpful. Thus, references for mechanics, avionics, paint, etc... can be derived from one site. Thanks, John Breda
PTK Posted June 26, 2012 Report Posted June 26, 2012 Quote: M20F-1968 ... where objective and factual stories can be posted, showing both the good and the bad. If owners can stick to objective experiences in their description of their bad experiences,... John Breda
fantom Posted June 26, 2012 Report Posted June 26, 2012 Quote: allsmiles .....There are some really difficult airplane owners....
KSMooniac Posted June 26, 2012 Report Posted June 26, 2012 I think it is a good idea to make such a sub-forum here, but I expect it would need to actually be moderated a bit otherwise it could turn into an excrement-fest in short order. Allsmiles vs. All American is such an example...he had a bad experience and many others here had great experiences and are even repeat customers. Jimmy posted his side and we had a multi-page thread that degenerated as these things do. I think such a forum should be limited to first-person accounts of any shop under reviewed, and the owners (and maybe mechanics or shop owners too) should be prepared to post invoices or work orders, etc. as evidence so it doesn't turn into a he-said/she-said ordeal. Any "piling-on" comments from the peanut gallery should not be allowed, and aggressively moderated if necessary either by Craig or perhaps he can designate some volunteer mods to keep an eye on things. This forum has done pretty well IMO over the years without moderation, but this could be a tricky area. It would be very useful if we could add some tags or keywords or something to shop (or broker) reviews by state, region, or specialty so that searching for a shop in Missouri, for example, might yield something useful. Just food for thought...
Sabremech Posted June 26, 2012 Report Posted June 26, 2012 As I said in my previous postings, Include a thread for A&P's to rate the pilot/owners who bring their airplanes in for work. You want to be fair then make it go both ways! That way we can be warned about owners and pilots who want to nickel and dime us to death or store their airplane for free for months while they say they don't have the money to pay the bill.
M20F-1968 Posted June 26, 2012 Author Report Posted June 26, 2012 I agree that limiting the postings to: 1) The owner who had work performed, and the results of that work, and any objective facts, documents, evidence. 2) The shop's reply would be the best approach. It needs to be a a short, objective, easily reviewed and read site of owners' experiences. Listings could be by state and by specialty (airframe, general maitenance, paint, engine rebuild, avionics, etc...) The emotions should be left out, post what is factual and readily proven. John Breda
Becca Posted June 26, 2012 Report Posted June 26, 2012 Quote: M20F-1968 I agree that limiting the postings to: 1) The owner who had work performed, and the results of that work, and any objective facts, documents, evidence. 2) The shop's reply would be the best approach. It needs to be a a short, objective, easily reviewed and read site of owners' experiences. Listings could be by state and by specialty (airframe, general maitenance, paint, engine rebuild, avionics, etc...) The emotions should be left out, post what is factual and readily proven. John Breda
Sabremech Posted June 26, 2012 Report Posted June 26, 2012 Hi Becca, I find it odd that you can't understand what being fair means and that somehow you believe people will post just the honest facts and not embellish at all. Good luck with that as peoples emotions of perceived events will trump what actually happened preventing the real truth from being posted regardless if they have to sgn their name or not.
Becca Posted June 26, 2012 Report Posted June 26, 2012 Quote: Sabremech Hi Becca, I find it odd that you can't understand what being fair means and that somehow you believe people will post just the honest facts and not embellish at all. Good luck with that as peoples emotions of perceived events will trump what actually happened preventing the real truth from being posted regardless if they have to sgn their name or not.
Sabremech Posted June 26, 2012 Report Posted June 26, 2012 Let's see what factual information was given to start this controversy. Is this not hearsay? This is what we can expect from a thread rating A&P's/ Shops. "Quote" "Hello everyone, I was contacted by a aircraft owner who is in the middle of a law suit against a facility in Florida that is known to the Mooney community to be, let's say, less then reputable. This time, this facility, has done somthing that has captured the attention of federal alphabet agency, as well other officials in the state. In order to bolster the case, this person has asked me to interact with the Mooney community to find others who have suffered like this person has. So if you are wiling to provide information regarding your issues with this facility, then please PM me you name only, and I will put you in contact with each other. Thanks Rich" Becca, Why can't we rate poor owners and Pilots? After all the bills are usually much more than a dinner or a nights stay at a hotel and can impact the financial stabilty of an A&P or shop. Should shops and A&P's be any different with letting cheapskate pilots skip from one shop to another and not paying their bills? How would this hurt my business if I had a shop? If I provide a good service and network with other shops about unscrupulous owners, eventually they won't be able to find anyone to sign their name in the logbook and keep them safe. Hence, they shouldn't own an airplane in the first place if they can't treat A&P's as the professional we are. You know what, this might not be a bad idea after all, we can get the same data from the pilots who complain and spread hearsay! Good Idea Becca!
231flyer Posted June 26, 2012 Report Posted June 26, 2012 "Our online community is dedicated to those who own, fly or just simply love Mooney aircraft. As a registered member you can post in our forums, create your own photo gallery and much more!" The purpose of this board is quite clear and we sign on accepting above. I am happy if the A&Ps setup their own forum/board/club house/frat house etc. to discuss errant owners. We have uncovered an unmet need for owners/pilots. A separate area (Forum) on this board would help collect the current wealth of mechanic reviews already on this board. Its all in here folks if you are willing to search. People will post their own expereince and we can each judge for ourselves if its legit or not. The same would go for any retorts from A&Ps or non-paying owners. This isn't about exacting revenge or passing judgement, simply exchanging info.
bnicolette Posted June 26, 2012 Report Posted June 26, 2012 Quote: 231flyer This isn't about exacting revenge or passing judgement, simply exchanging info.
gregwatts Posted June 26, 2012 Report Posted June 26, 2012 This doesn't need to be a divisive issue or an "A&P vs pilot/owner" thing. I think everybody would like to know if a particular A&P is reputable just as much as an A&P would like to know what kind of customer just showed up at his door. Both sides can only benefit if both sides work together. Perhaps there are PITA customers that need to be educated.......there are shops that need to "get their shit together". My opinion only!
Becca Posted June 26, 2012 Report Posted June 26, 2012 Quote: gregwatts This doesn't need to be a divisive issue or an "A&P vs pilot/owner" thing. I think everybody would like to know if a particular A&P is reputable just as much as an A&P would like to know what kind of customer just showed up at his door. Both sides can only benefit if both sides work together. Perhaps there are PITA customers that need to be educated.......there are shops that need to "get their shit together". My opinion only!
jetdriven Posted June 26, 2012 Report Posted June 26, 2012 Quote: Sabremech Becca, Why can't we rate poor owners and Pilots? After all the bills are usually much more than a dinner or a nights stay at a hotel and can impact the financial stabilty of an A&P or shop. Should shops and A&P's be any different with letting cheapskate pilots skip from one shop to another and not paying their bills? How would this hurt my business if I had a shop? If I provide a good service and network with other shops about unscrupulous owners, eventually they won't be able to find anyone to sign their name in the logbook and keep them safe. Hence, they shouldn't own an airplane in the first place if they can't treat A&P's as the professional we are. You know what, this might not be a bad idea after all, we can get the same data from the pilots who complain and spread hearsay! Good Idea Becca!
231flyer Posted June 26, 2012 Report Posted June 26, 2012 Ok so how do we petition our webmaster Craig (Mooniac58?) to add a forum under "General". I suggest calling it " SHOP TALK: A place for the GOOD, the BAD, and the UGLY". Everyone welcome, retorts and all.
PTK Posted June 27, 2012 Report Posted June 27, 2012 This can't be allowed to degrade to airplane owner vs mechanic/shop. It is not a relationship based on adversity. There has to be synergy and we all benefit. Unfortunately the internet has facilitated anonymity. Anybody can go on some site and blow steam posting irresponsibly anything they feel like. Unless they put their name on it, it doesn't deserve my attention. If it's important enough for them to post then they need to sign their name. I have never seen a mechanic or a shop complain about an aircraft owner! But owners somehow find ways to complain about mechanics. Perhaps because they have to pay the bill. Well folks, the shop has bills too! Bills we as owners do not see that are much larger than ours! It costs money for a shop to be there to service our airplane and keep us in the air safely. It didn't magically and suddenly drop out of the sky! Somebody worked and works hard to be there at our leisure! It all comes down to proper COMMUNICATION and for all to chill and realize that "to err is human." Personally, I'm greatful for my service center who takes excellent care of my annuals and for my local mechanic, Bob, who is always there for the incidentals. I can't thank them enough for the great service they provide. Yes they charge and they have a right to get paid. They deserve our support. They need us and we need them. Sometimes we don't appreciate something till suddenly it's gone! Next time your mechanic helps you shake their hand, look them in the eyes and say thank you, and mean it!
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