Busted into a class Charlie yesterday

[DCarlton]

Curious, does anyone know how approach hands off an aircraft to tower?  Is it done actively or do they just put aircraft where towers expects them to be at the required spacing (a prior agreement of some sort).  Do they show up on the towers systems as some sort of highlighted or color changed blip (it's yours now)?  That gap in communications when a busy pilot fails to contact a busy tower quickly during the handoff, seems like an area of increased risk.  

[EricJ]

58 minutes ago, MB65E said:

Oppositely,  I found it strange that flying past Burbank under the Charlie I was given an altitude restriction. The tower said altitude restriction deleted. I climbed out on schedule. Not being told to contact approach (still with tower) I climbed up through the Charlie. That wasn’t good either. The tower only controls the inner ring. Approach owns the outer ring. 
-Matt

Last year after being cleared through the Bravo airspace for the transition over Sky Harbor (Phoenix) airport, I got cleared for "all VFR altitudes", so I climbed up to my cruising altitude of 7500', which put me back in the bottom of one of the Bravo shelves right at the edge of the Bravo airpace.  The controller was annoyed and called me back and said he "wasn't expecting that".   Well...

[Thedude]

27 minutes ago, jlunseth said:

This discussion has gone on forever, I don’t mean the discussion in the forum here, but the discussion about whether you can enter a Class B, C or D while on Flight Following, without meeting the airspace rules for contacting the tower or getting a clearance before entering. And the answer forever has always been the same. No, you cannot. It is your responsibility to contact FF and prompt them to hand you off, and/or do a 360. Will you get a violation? Unlikely. But it is your responsibility and not the controller’s to stay out of controlled airspace when VFR until specifically authorized to enter.

This is what I'm trying to understand better. Do you know what the applicable regulations are that I should read up on? Do I need to be talking to tower before entering the Charlie at all or just the inner ring or is talking to approach enough to meet the requirements (sounds like you're saying that's not the case?)?

[midlifeflyer]

50 minutes ago, Thedude said:

This is what I'm trying to understand better. Do you know what the applicable regulations are that I should read up on? Do I need to be talking to tower before entering the Charlie at all or just the inner ring or is talking to approach enough to meet the requirements (sounds like you're saying that's not the case?)?

There's a little bit of fudge in here, but these are the basics. 

The communication rules for Class C and D airspace (FAR 91.129 and 91.130) require the establishment and maintenance of communications with "with the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that area" (Class D) / "with the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that area "(Class C).  The problem in situations like yours - into the Class C primary - and more generally, TRACON to Tower in either airspace is that you and I really don't know who that is. That for various reasons, most of which are agreements between TRACON and Tower we are not privy to.  Two examples (among hundreds).

• This is a Class B to D example, but it's the same situation. The specific airspace doesn't matter but it helps for this example. Those familiar with the picture at the bottom will recognize it as the Denver Class B centered on the BJC Class D. The Bravo starts at 8,000. Below is the BJC Delta. On this training flight we were not talking to Denver and were planning to cross over BJC. My student called BJC Tower and requested transition at 7,500.  Tower told us to call Denver Approach. There's a letter of agreement between BJC and TRACON giving DEN jurisdiction of that segment of BJC's airspace. 
• At one time Pueblo, Colorado's (KPUB) Class D had its own Approach Control. I've been given pattern instructions and landing clearances there from Approach.

The regs don't know this, but ATC does. So the ATC manual tells controllers that it is TRACON's responsibility to
          "Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace." 
There's a not to that paragraph: "The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility."

It's also TRACON's responsibility to "Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility."

That, in short is why what happened is no big deal and why once told it was TRACON's fault, the tone of the conversation changed. 

The one caution I have is this. I have no problem with remaining mum and happily transiting a Delta while talking to TRACON. But I see landing at the towered airport differently. Less from a regulatory standpoint than from a practical one. It's tower's job to coordinate runway access. A delayed handoff can cause problems for a busy Tower. So I will always prompt TRACON for a handoff if I am landing.

Yes, that's  a bit fuzzy, but those who have gotten rid of the last remnants of their their ATC-phobias don't worry about it much.  

[toto]

1 hour ago, DCarlton said:

Curious, does anyone know how approach hands off an aircraft to tower?  Is it done actively or do they just put aircraft where towers expects them to be at the required spacing (a prior agreement of some sort).  Do they show up on the towers systems as some sort of highlighted or color changed blip (it's yours now)?  That gap in communications when a busy pilot fails to contact a busy tower quickly during the handoff, seems like an area of increased risk.  

Hopefully we have a controller here who can comment, but my sense is that they do something very manual (like a phone call) to coordinate the handoff for VFR traffic.

I regularly fly into a class delta airport where I’m talking to an approach controller on FF and I need to transition another class delta on my way in. Sometimes the approach controller will arrange a transition without me asking, sometimes I have to ask. Whenever this happens, they say something like “I’ll see if I can get a hold of the tower for a transition.”

Today if it’s quiet I normally just cancel FF and call the tower for a transition myself. It seems too slow and painful for both me and the approach controller when I ask them to do it

[Thedude]

26 minutes ago, midlifeflyer said:

There's a little bit of fudge in here, but these are the basics. 

The communication rules for Class C and D airspace (FAR 91.129 and 91.130) require the establishment and maintenance of communications with "with the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that area" (Class D) / "with the ATC facility having jurisdiction over that area "(Class C).  The problem in situations like yours - into the Class C primary - and more generally, TRACON to Tower in either airspace is that you and I really don't know who that is. That for various reasons, most of which are agreements between TRACON and Tower we are not privy to.  Two examples (among hundreds).

• This is a Class B to D example, but it's the same situation. The specific airspace doesn't matter but it helps for this example. Those familiar with recognize it as the Denver Class B centered on the BJC Class D. The Bravo starts at 8,000. Below is the BJC Delta. On this training flight we were not talking to Denver and were planning to cross over BJC. My student called BJC Tower and requested transition at 7,500.  Tower told us to call Denver Approach. There's a letter of agreement between BJC and TRACON giving DEN jurisdiction of that segment of BJC's airspace. 
• At one time Pueblo, Colorado's (KPUB) Class D had its own Approach Control. I've been given pattern instructions and landing clearances there from Approach.

The regs don't know this, but ATC does. So the ATC manual tells controllers that it is TRACON's responsibility to
          "Coordinate with the appropriate control tower for transit authorization when you are providing radar traffic advisory service to an aircraft that will enter another facility's airspace." 
There's a not to that paragraph: "The pilot is not expected to obtain his/her own authorization through each area when in contact with a radar facility."

It's also TRACON's responsibility to "Transfer communications to the appropriate facility, if required, prior to operation within a surface area for which the tower has responsibility."

That, in short is why what happened is no big deal and why once told it was TRACON's fault, the tone of the conversation changed. 

The one caution I have is this. I have no problem with remaining mum and happily transiting a Delta while talking to TRACON. But I see landing at the towered airport differently. Less from a regulatory standpoint than from a practical one. It's tower's job to coordinate runway access. A delayed handoff can cause problems for a busy Tower. So I will always prompt TRACON for a handoff if I am landing.

Yes, that's  a bit fuzzy, but those who have gotten rid of the last remnants of their their ATC-phobias don't worry about it much.  

 

That's very helpful, thank you. 

[N201MKTurbo]

Now that they are having Operation Raincheck visits going again. You might want to schedule one. I have found it is best to call the facility and put your name on a wait list. Last time I did, they actually called me back when they had an opening.

[M20F]

5 hours ago, jlunseth said:

This discussion has gone on forever, I don’t mean the discussion in the forum here, but the discussion about whether you can enter a Class B, C or D while on Flight Following, without meeting the airspace rules for contacting the tower or getting a clearance before entering. And the answer forever has always been the same. No, you cannot. It is your responsibility to contact FF and prompt them to hand you off, and/or do a 360. Will you get a violation? Unlikely. But it is your responsibility and not the controller’s to stay out of controlled airspace when VFR until specifically authorized to enter.

I am surprised I had to scroll the far, well said. 

[Thedude]

10 minutes ago, M20F said:

I am surprised I had to scroll the far, well said. 

So you disagree with midlifeflyer's post?

[MikeOH]

45 minutes ago, M20F said:

I am surprised I had to scroll the far, well said. 

Hmm, what jlunseth said was technically correct, but pretty misleading and unhelpful, IMHO.

What @midlifeflyer said was clear, practical, and legal.  Again, IMHO

[Ragsf15e]

17 hours ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

I flew into GEG Spokane international a couple of weeks ago.  I was on flight following with Approach which handed me off 12-15 miles out to the tower.   So seems like this is what the tower wanted in your situation rather than approach directing you into the traffic pattern.    That’s understandable but they should save their anger for whoever was running approach.  Personally I’ve always considered approach, tower and ground to be different parts of one entity.  If I land and tower gives me taxi instructions as I clear the runway should I have to worry about being yelled at by ground for doing what I was instructed to do?   
 

How are we supposed to know tower hasn’t asked approach to send people into the traffic pattern for them?  If they aren’t then why are they not giving the handoff at the right time?  If this is how ATC operates then how are we supposed to trust them?   I get their jobs are difficult and I don’t expect perfection, but don’t blame the guy who did what you told him to do.  That just creates a toxic environment.  

Sometimes the coordination between class b, c, d is like they’re “one entity”, sometimes not.  Usually the main airport under a c/b works like that (and should), but I’ve found lots of variation for outlying fields under an airspace (like kapa, ksff, or kttd).  If im getting close to the class d without being prompted, ill ask for changeover unless approach is telling me about traffic or restricting me for some reason. Going into/out of ksff, it’s pretty quiet, so Spokane approach to either tower (kgeg or ksff) is like one entity.  At kttd, Portland approach doesn’t do anything for you and there appears to be no coordination between approach/tower.  It’s not technically required if you’re already talking to approach, but I’d want handed off before entering the D.  There are some “LOAs” between tower/approach on when and where they should hand you off and what airspace tower actually owns vs approach that we aren’t always aware of.

[M20F]

2 hours ago, Thedude said:

So you disagree with midlifeflyer's post?

I don’t.  He wrote a legal brief. @jlunseth wrote common sense.  Both are correct.  One came before the other, was correct, and where I stopped.  
 

[PeteMc]

On 7/25/2025 at 8:06 AM, Thedude said:

I'm handed over to tower who then berates me for entering their class C without talking to the tower

I don't know of any Class C where you contact the Tower first.  And I didn't see anywhere what Freq you were on, by chance was it 120.55 which is what the Sectional shows? 

And let us know what the Tower Chief says when you talk to them.  My guess s/he may have a little discussion with the Local Controller as it sounds like a TRACON issue, not a Pilot issue. 

 

 

[Thedude]

1 hour ago, PeteMc said:

I don't know of any Class C where you contact the Tower first.  And I didn't see anywhere what Freq you were on, by chance was it 120.55 which is what the Sectional shows? 

And let us know what the Tower Chief says when you talk to them.  My guess s/he may have a little discussion with the Local Controller as it sounds like a TRACON issue, not a Pilot issue. 

 

 

I was talking to Santa Barbara approach for my whole trip. I was on 125.4, which is always the final frequency before tower when I fly down there and also the departure frequency. They handed me off 3 miles from the airport after telling me to make right traffic 25. I called the tower and they said I can't enter the Charlie without talking to the tower 10 miles out. That didn't make sense, but I was just seeking input, not looking to argue at that point. 

[jlunseth]

This is simple. Midlifeflyers post is accurate up to a point, and I certainly don’t mean to get into an argument with him, from what I can tell reading the forum he is a good guy. But his post is based on the controllers manual. Pilots are not subject to the controllers manual, they are subject to the FARs. Don’t get caught sleeping if you are approaching a C, D, or B and have not received an express clearance and read it back, or you have not been handed off and talked to tower. Prompt the controller and don’t enter unless it’s clear that you have complied with the FARs. I have heard more than one pilot get yelled at on the radio by tower for this, or get a number to call if it has created a traffic problem for tower. Flight Following means you are VFR which means you are in control not ATC, it is going to be your problem.

IFR is a completely different animal don’t get them confused.

[Thedude]

1 minute ago, jlunseth said:

This is simple. Midlifeflyers post is accurate up to a point, and I certainly don’t mean to get into an argument with him, from what I can tell reading the forum he is a good guy. But his post is based on the controllers manual. Pilots are not subject to the controllers manual, they are subject to the FARs. Don’t get caught sleeping if you are approaching a C, D, or B and have not received an express clearance and read it back, or you have not been handed off and talked to tower. Prompt the controller and don’t enter unless it’s clear that you have complied with the FARs. I have heard more than one pilot get yelled at on the radio by tower for this, or get a number to call if it has created a traffic problem for tower. Flight Following means you are VFR which means you are in control not ATC, it is going to be your problem.

IFR is a completely different animal don’t get them confused.

This is what I'm asking to clarify, can you point me to the FARs relevant here? I'm more than happy to accept that I screwed up, I just want some advice on understanding what my responsibilities are. 

[Utah20Gflyer]

3 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Sometimes the coordination between class b, c, d is like they’re “one entity”, sometimes not.  Usually the main airport under a c/b works like that (and should), but I’ve found lots of variation for outlying fields under an airspace (like kapa, ksff, or kttd).  If im getting close to the class d without being prompted, ill ask for changeover unless approach is telling me about traffic or restricting me for some reason. Going into/out of ksff, it’s pretty quiet, so Spokane approach to either tower (kgeg or ksff) is like one entity.  At kttd, Portland approach doesn’t do anything for you and there appears to be no coordination between approach/tower.  It’s not technically required if you’re already talking to approach, but I’d want handed off before entering the D.  There are some “LOAs” between tower/approach on when and where they should hand you off and what airspace tower actually owns vs approach that we aren’t always aware of.

I agree with your point.  I was making a narrow observation about a class C airport that approach, clearance, tower and ground are essentially the same entity.  I get that center and a class D airport are probably not going to coordinate.  Or a Delta under a Bravo.  It would sure be nice if they did but that’s a bridge too far at the moment.   I do expect approach and tower to coordinate at the same airport but maybe that is too much to expect at the moment as well.  Being proactive as you suggest is prudent.  

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, jlunseth said:

Don’t get caught sleeping if you are approaching a C, D, or B and have not received an express clearance and read it back, or you have not been handed off and talked to tower.

Let's be clear on EACH of these (for VFR):

1) Class B: You MUST receive a specific CLEARANCE, namely, "Mooney <callsign> is CLEARED into the BRAVO." I always read that CLEARANCE back, but I'm not even sure that is required for VFR.  You are on tape as being CLEARED into BRAVO.

2) Class C or D: There is no EXPRESS 'clearance' required. You must establish two-way comms which is accomplished when the controller acknowledges you with your callsign (AND does NOT specifically tell you to remain clear of C or D). At that point you can enter the airspace.

In the OP's case he was landing at KSBA, the PRIMARY airport, in CLASS C; there is NO CLASS D!

This screw-up is all on approach control. If you disagree please cite the specific FAR that REQUIRES the VFR pilot, already in proper comms with approach, to contact tower ON HIS OWN without being told to do so by approach.

YOU are NOT responsible to determine when to contact tower in this situation, and you can't just 'leave' approach control because you 'feel it's time'!  Sure, if you are getting close it's a good idea to ask if they haven't handed you off yet, but THAT is NOT REQUIRED of you.

There may be LOAs, or who knows what, for procedures between approach and tower that you are NOT privy to.  Your vague claim that 'if you are approaching a C (what distance? cite?) and have not received an express clearance (no such thing in C, and you ARE in proper comms)... 'or have not been handed off and talked to tower' (cite, please?) then 'you've been caught sleeping'? NO!  Approach was sleeping.

Again, both when this happened to me, and the OP, when tower was informed, "I contacted you as soon as approach handed me off" the 'problem' and animus disappeared.  If this was on the pilot, as you seem to claim, then I don't see why their attitude would suddenly change?  It seems far more reasonable that they THOUGHT a plane just bumbled right into their traffic pattern without any call up; of course they'd be pissed at the pilot!  When pointed out that approach had FAILED TO TELL TOWER you were coming it's no surprise their anger at the pilot went away, and likely shifted to being pissed at approach!

[PeteMc]

2 hours ago, Thedude said:

I called the tower and they said I can't enter the Charlie without talking to the tower 10 miles out. That didn't make sense, but I was just seeking input, not looking to argue at that point. 

This guy seems WAY out of the loop.  You don't call the Twr in a Class C 10 miles out.  Was this the Tower Chief or one of the Controllers?  Possibly the Controller you yelled at you in the first place?  (That seems to have forgotten what the process is.)

If it wasn't the Tower Chief, I'd call back and be sure to ask for them and if not their, ask for the name and either call back or ask them to call you.   Other option is to go into the FSDO at SBA next time you're there and see what they say and confirm the name of the Twr Chief with them. 

Edited 6 hours ago by PeteMc

[midlifeflyer]

6 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Again, both when this happened to me, and the OP, when tower was informed, "I contacted you as soon as approach handed me off" the 'problem' and animus disappeared.  If this was on the pilot, as you seem to claim, then I don't see why their attitude would suddenly change?

Just a side note… Regulatory nuance aside, there is a very practical reason for the change in attitude. In order for ATC to report the pilot deviation (assuming there was one), they have to report their own (which is clear).