Kawasaki aviation engines

[Brandt]

 

[N201MKTurbo]

https://www.global-kawasaki-motors.com/aero-piston-engines/

 

[toto]

Geez, a successful hydrogen engine for single-engine piston aircraft is really hard to imagine, and it sounds like hydrogen is their long-term plan?

The gasoline market seems pretty saturated, and it feels like you need to sell states on military drone applications if you want to make money today. Selling a V-12 piston in the PT-6 market is interesting, but there would have to be really serious cost advantages if you’re going to convince people to give up the reliability of the turboprop. 

[Hank]

200 hp, 1 liter displacement and less than 90kg (< 200 lb). Sign me up! I'll take the extra power and the extra useful load. 

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, Hank said:

200 hp, 1 liter displacement and less than 90kg (< 200 lb). Sign me up! I'll take the extra power and the extra useful load. 

At 8500 rpm, if that baby shells out, you'll never find all the pieces.

[Utah20Gflyer]

Lots of companies talk about getting their engines certified but it’s an easy thing to talk about and a very difficult thing to do in practice.    Even if it were certified right now it would still be a long time before it made it into an actual airframe.   Best case scenario one of these engines makes it into a certified airplane about the time I’m aging out of flying.  So meh! 

[Hank]

5 minutes ago, Utah20Gflyer said:

Best case scenario one of these engines makes it into a certified airplane about the time I’m aging out of flying.  So meh! 

Kawasaki's timeline is for type certifications in 2030. I hope to become a UFO, which is 18 years in the future. That theoretically gives them time to drive it through and replace my O-360. Maybe?

[dkkim73]

42 minutes ago, Fly Boomer said:

At 8500 rpm, if that baby shells out, you'll never find all the pieces.

Yeah, ugly visual.

OTOH I think motorcycle engines are built to consistently rev high, so you'd think they'd have figured the MTBF out. 

My general reaction is that diversity is good in this respect. Maybe they'll be big enough to invest enough to pull it off. 

Density of hydrogen seems problematic to me. Not sure eliminating carbon from small aircraft is that much bang for buck. 

One advantage of turbines is being able to burn anything. I was kind of excited to read about that small turbine from the French company, with the heat exchanger design. Seemed clever and not snake oil. I don't recall the name off hand but it was in the AOPA mag. 

[Pinecone]

IMO, the real issue with hydrogen as a fuel is that it is not an energy source.   You have to make it.  So spend energy to make it, spend energy to store it, and the energy density is low.

[toto]

26 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

I was kind of excited to read about that small turbine from the French company, with the heat exchanger design. Seemed clever and not snake oil. I don't recall the name off hand but it was in the AOPA mag. 

Turbotech

https://mooneyspace.com/topic/50712-bristell-turbine/

 

[kortopates]

Makes me think of the Porsche M20L, a lot of similarities but Porsche engine RPM was probably half what this. At least they have much more aviation experience than what Porsche did.


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[N201MKTurbo]

I have a motorcycle that makes 160HP at 9000 RPM (FJR1300 with headers and a FI tuner)   It rarely sees that RPM. I would hate to run it like that for any length of time. 
 

I always wonder about the longevity of these engines running at 100% power. 

[Paul Thomas]

I think there is an RV flying with a turbo Kawasaki engine and it's putting out impressive numbers. Great for experimental but that is the likelihood that we will get an STC?

[dkkim73]

13 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

 

I always wonder about the longevity of these engines running at 100% power. 

That's a good point that underlines the problem with the common "car engines are better" view... The duty cycle of light aircraft engines vs terrestrial are significantly different. 

[76Srat]

Haven't bothered with the article and likely won't, but my very first thought is what about constant shaft/direct drive horsepower?  Moto engines require a gearbox.  Will this one be direct-drive, constant shaft RPM?  If so, how?  If not, why not?  I've been advocating for our collective belief as a group in alternative power supply for the entire  legacy piston fleet instead of replacement UL avgas alternatives to existing fleet power sources.  The former is the only way forward; the latter is dead-man walking, er flying.  

Love seeing new ideas in the marketplace, but piston moto engines isn't where my brain wants to go . . .

[N201MKTurbo]

You will have to put a Ninja sticker on your plane.

[Hank]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You will have to put a Ninja sticker on your plane.

It'll go right under the mask & pistol sticker on my Ranger!

[GeeBee]

For some reason when I hear hydrogen and aviation I hear the words, "Oh the humanity". Don't know why

[N201MKTurbo]

I don’t know why people make such a big deal about making engines work on hydrogen. It seems kind of trivial. 
 

Putting enough hydrogen in a vehicle to be worthwhile is the trick.

Finding hydrogen you don’t have to make is what we really need. I read recently that they have found free hydrogen underground. I’m very sceptical.

[IvanP]

29 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

For some reason when I hear hydrogen and aviation I hear the words, "Oh the humanity". Don't know why

Hindenburg - 1937 - one of the aviation oh S%$# moments.

[Brandt]

1 minute ago, IvanP said:

Hindenburg - 1937 - one of the aviation oh S%$# moments.

Well, it clearly wouldn’t have happened if the Hindenburg had a BRS….

[GeeBee]

My brother had been given an experimental BMW. powered by hydrogen when he live in Munich. He had to refuel it at the factory. Refueling hydrogen is a serious process which in this case was done robotically while everyone was behind shields. Should there be a leak that catches fire, the hydrogen flame is colorless, you can only detect it by the heat wave coming off of the flame. 

[dkkim73]

11 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Finding hydrogen you don’t have to make is what we really need. I read recently that they have found free hydrogen underground. I’m very sceptical.

Hydrogen fuel seems to me one of those very elegant ideas that's thorny in practice. 

Since you mention production, one of the most inspiring ideas I've heard of in ages is the work Valar Atomics is doing: they're trying to synthesize hydrocarbons using atomic power. 

[N201MKTurbo]

42 minutes ago, dkkim73 said:

Hydrogen fuel seems to me one of those very elegant ideas that's thorny in practice. 

Since you mention production, one of the most inspiring ideas I've heard of in ages is the work Valar Atomics is doing: they're trying to synthesize hydrocarbons using atomic power. 

Lots of energy in for some energy out. Synthesizing hydrocarbons would be a solution for oil depletion, but it won’t make the climate change crowd happy.

What are they using for feed stock for their synthesis? Most past synthesis like Fischer Tropsch used coal as the feed stock.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fischer–Tropsch_process

[1980Mooney]

This Kawasaki "hydrogen fueled" aircraft engine story is a "nothing burger"....a waste of thought exercise.  The only way to have sufficient energy density is to carry it in liquid form cryogenically.  On a GA aircraft?...cryo fuel tanks?  Give me a break.  Weight penalty,? Inspection?  Leaks?  Replacement schedules? 

And even with the best insulating materials, evaporation is 0.5-1.0% per day.   The fuel tanks have to vent or they build pressure and explode.  You might have to defuel planes before storing them in a closed hangar.  Otherwise you have a massive fire danger like @GeeBee highlighted.

Oh - and just imagine the massive cost for airports to install cryo fuel tank farms.  Every little airfield.  This is a big joke.