Two gear up landings within 2 days of each other - M20C at KFNL & M20M at KPAE.

[A64Pilot]

On 4/27/2025 at 11:29 PM, Andy95W said:

Someone here (maybe @Hank?) has said their spouse has one job in the pattern and that’s to ask if the gear is down when on final approach.  If I’d thought about that when I was instructing, I would’ve suggested that.

I think it was me, but her job is not to ask, but to make sure, Verify gear down is I think an important distinction from gear down and I have her verify by looking at the floor, then she gives me a thumbs up, of course I’m checking too, but her doing also makes I think it less likely that both of us forget. Obviously I often fly without her, Wednesday lunch for instance so you can’t rely on the other person.

I also installed a daylight white LED in the floor indicator that’s a lot brighter than the incandescent so it’s really easy to see the marks, with the old bulb in daylight it was difficult at best.

To continue everything stops when I get the gear, by that I mean I do nothing, checklist stops until I verify they are down, flipping the switch for many satisfies mentally the requirement, but i’ve changed that to verify gear down as opposed to gear down in the checklist. May seem picky but I know the day is coming when I put the switch down and nothing happens 

[A64Pilot]

On 4/28/2025 at 1:55 AM, hazek said:

How do people slow down to flap speed without the gear down? Idle power, speed brakes and nose up?? For me coming in at 20" the gear must come down to slow down. There's no other obvious normal approach way.

I got my fixed wing transition and Commercial / instrument at Central Tx College in Killeen Tx, as it was a degree producing program it made it easier for me to do while active duty. Anyway the purpose of that school was to produce Airline Pilots not Mooney drivers. According to them most or nearly all Airline type aircraft get approach flaps, not gear first, so therefore they required flaps first, then gear, which means of course you had to slow to 111 kts, put in approach flaps, then get gear.

It’s easy to do if you plan it, but you have to plan ahead, you’re not making the approach if you hit glide slope intercept at 130 kts for instance. I have zero experience with the big iron, but bet they are similar I bet they have to start slowing well before the approach.

I’m also convinced that at least for the aircraft with lower gear doors that slowing before dropping the gear is easier on the actuator and the mechanism, as is retracting it at as slow an airspeed that is safe to do so.

[A64Pilot]

On 4/28/2025 at 10:24 AM, Pinecone said:

The USAF trains from early on in retract aircraft, does lots of touch and goes, and does not have many gear ups.

But they do have an RSU with someone watching to make sure the gear is down (for GA a Landing Height System would do similar), but even so, they seldom have someone forget the gear.

I was Military trained as well, but we cannot compare Military training to GA civilian training. It’s not so much that the Military pilots are “better” they are most often younger and much more highly motivated and those arguably make them more trainable. It’s their Job, no other distractions, my training was classroom training half the day and the flightline the other half, if we had a weather day, we flew the weekends to make it up. 

Civilians have a job that’s primary usually, they train and fly when they can, maybe a couple of times a week, plus their instructor is their employee, if they don’t like them they can get another, you take a checkride when you and your instructor feel your ready. Military isn’t like that, you checkride upon reaching the syllabus hours, fail just one and as a min you don’t graduate at the top of your class which means you don’t pick the aircraft you fly as a min. fail a couple and your out, in my case that meant staying a Sgt and back to being a mechanic, not the end of the world, but certainly the end of the dream, part of the motivation.

So most civilian it’s a hobby, paid for by that job that they spend a min of 40 hours a week at so they can afford to fly.

Military it is their job, so they can spend every day, all day training.

[Pinecone]

But a civilian student can also have the motivation and mindset similar to military.  They just need to switch gears from primary work to flying when they get to the airport.

[A64Pilot]

14 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

But a civilian student can also have the motivation and mindset similar to military.  They just need to switch gears from primary work to flying when they get to the airport.

Not really, you think you can but ask anyone who has been through basic training if they have ever been that motivated in the civilian world, for me WOC “Warrant Officer Candidate” training made basic look easy. Air Force and Army “real” Officers it’s a lot more laid back.

But the biggest difference I think is in the Military and I assume Commercial world, it’s your Job, the thing that you have to do well in as it brings home the bacon, buys shoes for the Baby etc. Then add in that you get up in the morning thinking flying, majority of the day is consumed by it and nights are spent studying and memorizing everything about it and the aircraft. There is just no way anyone with a real job could possibly put that number of hours per week into training, not and have a job anyway or actually a family really.

There is no change the mindset when you get to the airport. The entirety of your life if you will is flying and training.

I was Married and had a kid, but did not live with them, I lived in a Military Barracks, at some point I was allowed to go home on the weekends I think as long as training was going well, but I don’t remember when that was.

Edited April 30 by A64Pilot

[Pinecone]

I meant that a motivated civilian student could approach with the proper mindset and accomplish much of the same.

The biggest thing I saw with military flight training was flying more often.  Flying just about every day and sometimes 2 flights in a day.

From first flights to graduation was about 10 months.  So 200 work days.  And I graduated with 170 hours in the aircraft, plus sim time.  Some others were over 240 hours (IIRC).  So we averaged just under an hour a day to a good bit over.

[kortopates]

On 4/28/2025 at 4:45 AM, hazek said:

In the Bravo I never pull back power below 20" before gear down. I don't know why, but my gear horn starts to sound just under 20" (probably miscalibrated). And honestly I don't find any need to go below 20" flying VFR before gear down if I plan my descent well so that I arrive a few NM from the traffic pattern at TPA. Most of the time this is anyway required with mandatory VRPs around larger airports here in Europe. So for me it's gear down to slow down. That's why I'm surprised that people don't have trouble slowing down without their gear down. I guess they really just go idle power..

Yes, its not setup properly. Your MM calls for it going off when throttle position is less than 1/4" from idle and IAS is below 65+/- 5 kts with gear switch up. Most of us routinely fly with less than 20" in descent before we have the gear down. This isn't hard to adjust.

[hazek]

On 4/30/2025 at 2:16 PM, A64Pilot said:

According to them most or nearly all Airline type aircraft get approach flaps, not gear first, so therefore they required flaps first, then gear, which means of course you had to slow to 111 kts, put in approach flaps, then get gear.

Hmm that makes little sense for the Bravo. First of all gear extension speed is 140 kt. Second of all if I take out so much power that I can slow to flaps speed then after going gear down I definitely need to add back power. This just seems like bad engine management. The way I land I almost never have to add power back in once I've taken it out. In the descent I reduce to 20", after gear down I keep it un changed, and I only reduce to about 16-15" in my final descent abeam, start adding flaps which slows me to about the right speed with full flaps at the right rate of descent.

I guess another way would be to put the gear down for the final descent abeam. I could see an argument for that since I do notice my CHT cooling rate from 20" to 16" quite a bit higher than ideal.

I don't know, I have limited experience. But the 747 captain that checked me out seemed to think it's a good idea to learn a power setting during approach that allows for the configuration change alone to arrive you at exactly your approach speed without the need for further significant power changes. To me it seems this can protect you from a gear up landing.

[A64Pilot]

Your not going to hurt the engine, I don’t know about you, but if I’m letting down from altitude at 500’ a min at cruise (23 squared) cowl flaps closed, LOP I have a hard time keeping the Cyl head temp in the green, in Florida in Summer. I often enrichen to add some warmth. When your near the bottom of the green temp wise shock cooling isn’t an issue

But I’m a J model, not a Bravo. I depends on what you consider important I guess, to me I’m going to baby the gear. In truth I try to Baby the whole airplane, I’m just not one to run the guts out of it. Some are and that’s fine, I get the “I didn’t buy a Mooney to go slow”

You don’t have to slow all the way to flap speed, but I can assure you as an old time A&P that if you don’t treat Maximum permissible gear speed as the normal gear speed pretty much everything in the gear will last longer. Surely none of us run the cyl head temp to redline in every climb do we? Why not, your allowed. 

I’ve watched time and again people hold that gear switch waiting for the instant they slow to max to drop the gear, many, heck I bet most do, I think they were taught that way.

 

Edited Sunday at 10:53 PM by A64Pilot

[Pinecone]

I do like @hazek but do not drop the gear at max extension speed.  I get at least 5 knots under, preferable 10 or more.

But gear first, then flaps.

And it is noticeable when the gear is not down.  

[IvanP]

Speedbrakes on my Bravo are my friend if I need to slow down fast while maintainig sufficient MP to avoid shock cooling. VLO on Bravo is 140kts, VFE is 110kts. In most cases I can slow her down to 120 kts even without the speedbrakes while maintaing about 20in MP. 

Gear down at about 120, then add flaps at 100 or so when turning base or just before FAF if flying instruent approach. If steep descent is needed, then speedbrakes first, gear down at 120 and flaps at 100.