First annual, how to schedule?

[Thedude]

I bought my first plane back in September and had an annual done at that point. I'm several months away from needing to do another, but I want to make sure I'm properly prepared. I want to take it to Top Gun in Ca, I'm an hour south of them flying wise. When should I start trying to book an annual? What should I bring? I have my logs digitized from the sale, I assume that should be sufficient? What else am I missing?

[hypertech]

If you want to go to Top Gun, call them and ask how far ahead you should get on their schedule.  I tend to do that a couple months ahead with my mechanic.  Some book up faster.  Some don't want to book until closer.

[varlajo]

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I would strongly advise against doing your first annual at an MSC - unless they did your prebuy or the last annual for the previous owner. This can turn very, very expensive very, very quickly. 

You'll need your logs, your last AD compliance document, and your squawk list.

[PeteMc]

Call now since it is your first and you're a new customer.  They'll probably tell you to call back, which is fine.  But get on their radar now.  And are they the shop you are currently using for oil changes and any other minor things that come up?  You want to build a reputation with the shop you're going to be using, and it works both ways. 

I recently moved, so I'm building a new relationship with the shop here.  But I could call the shop I used for decades a day or two out and see if I could come in for a quick oil change and seldom they'd say no.  They'd also put in a loose booking for my Annual before I even called (months out), because they knew when I typically liked to have it done. But they also had no problem calling me and asking if we could move or delay things if they had an AOG (Aircraft On Ground) for someone that just came in with a problem that was going to prevent a trip or some other timely issue.  I didn't have a problem since it was a two way street that worked out for both of us.  (I think I prob. only got one or two calls over the years asking for a day or so delay.)

[PeteMc]

4 hours ago, varlajo said:

This may be an unpopular opinion, but I would strongly advise against doing your first annual at an MSC

Interesting...  Hopefully @Thedude was told going into his purchase by multiple people that the first Annual (at any shop) is going to be expensive.  They are not going to know the plane and they are not going to know what the prior mechanic had on a list of rotating maintenance to keep the plane safe, but to spread out the costs.  So I think any shop is going to make sure everything is "fixed" before signing off.  But if you go to a non Mooney shop, you don't know what Mooney specifics might be missed - or screwed up. 

 

Edited Thursday at 12:35 AM by PeteMc

[varlajo]

2 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

...you don't know what Mooney specifics might be missed - or screwed up...

100% agree, but there is a great community of independent A&P IAs, at least in my corner of the woods, with a plethora of Mooney knowledge and experience. After all, what's really that unique about our planes? Landing gear and flight controls, that's pretty much it, isn't it? 

Edited Wednesday at 08:19 PM by varlajo

[PeteMc]

42 minutes ago, varlajo said:

but there is a great community of independent A&P IAs, at least in my corner of the woods, with a plethora of Mooney knowledge and experience. 

And have you shared the names of these shops? 

I was lucky when I first got my plane that I already knew some Mooney owners.  But I'm guessing @Thedude would love a list a KNOWN good Mooney shops in the area since it looks like he may be a neighbor of your if he was thinking about Top Gun.  

 

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, Thedude said:

 I have my logs digitized from the sale, I assume that should be sufficient? What else am I missing?

 

2 hours ago, varlajo said:

You'll need your logs, your last AD compliance document, and your squawk list.

In reality just having the digitized logs may be sufficient.  In my experience when you start using a new shop for your plane's Annual, it doesn't matter if you have an "AD Compliance Document" from the previous shop or not.  The new shop is likely going to charge you shop hours to check each AD and create a new "document".  There is no standard FAA form for logging AD Compliance.  The FAA only has a "suggested format" - see Appendix 1 in this link.   AC 43-9C CHG 1 

I have at least three (3) different "AD Compliance Logs" that I can find in my records, all different formats, all completely filled out and all with entries individually signed.  I am sure that I (and prior owners) have paid for this duplicate review/record keeping over the years.

The new shop is not likely going to simply trust that any existing list that you hand them is complete or accurate.  I suspect it is a liability thing.....

Edited Wednesday at 10:39 PM by 1980Mooney

[Danb]

I never provide my actual logs, I copy them and that’s what I give to the MSC,I’d also go to an MSC especially the first time since they should have the knowledge of your airframe. I doubt top gun would run up your bill in addition any extra work outside of required maintenance I’d want to discuss the repair and expected cost..

[MikeOH]

Top Gun is definitely proud of their work; pricing is Top Tier, I'll be the first to acknowledge.  Honestly, I'd probably use them every year if the logistics of getting there from southern California weren't such a pain.  They are very easy to work with, meet commitments, and no doubt they know Mooneys.  Unlike some family businesses, the transition from father, Tom, to son, Mark, has been without issue.

Yes, as a new owner, you run the risk of a big first annual.  But don't you want someone who knows Mooneys to find all the flaws so you at least start with a known 'clean slate?'. Remember, after the inspection you'll get a clear, itemized, list of findings with costs clearly delineated with parts and labor broken out for each item before any work begins.  You do NOT have to approve the non-airworthy items; I sure haven't.  E.g. they wanted $29 for a new placard that was coming off; I politely declined that one!

[varlajo]

2 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

The new shop is likely going to charge you shop hours to check each AD and create a new "document". 

The new shop is not likely going to simply trust that any existing list that you hand them is complete or accurate.  I suspect it is a liability thing.....

If an AD is signed off as PCW, the new shop will not spend time researching further. That sign off is not their liability thing after all. 

[Hank]

I always enquire with my IA a couple of months before I want the annual finished up. Usually works well.

[1980Mooney]

2 hours ago, varlajo said:

If an AD is signed off as PCW, the new shop will not spend time researching further. That sign off is not their liability thing after all. 

I am sure there are some A&P's and shops that will not spend time researching further if they see "PCW".  But here is an article by AviationPros that highlights how an expected "clean Annual" turned into an "Annual from Hell" when they actually looked that the "PCW" AD's.

I like the title - 

• Previously Complied With
  • Are you sure?

Previously Complied With | Aviation Pros

• "in the interest of safety, it is a good idea to at least look over the AD listings in the logbook, or that may be in the form of a computer readout, with a view to finding something that may bear further investigation. Not too many years ago, hand written AD listings contained very little detailed information as to exactly what was done in compliance with the requirements specified in an AD. In fact, "All ADs complied with" as part of an annual sign off was a fairly common notation. And the PCW that so often appears in an AD listing, is very often an assumption based upon a very scant entry made some years before."
• "Based upon the experience with the (plane in article) mentioned above, and a few similar instances encountered over the years, I have found it a good idea to reconsider all the ADs that apply to an aircraft at inspection time, whether previously complied with or not, and taking just a moment of time. Consider the possibility of the subject matter of each AD once more requiring attention"

Like many here the OP's plane is 45 years old.  The old handwritten logs many times err on the side of extreme brevity.  I know of a shop that is iron-ass about this - they are a combined training center and maintenance facility. They are not going to sign "All AD's complied with" in the logs unless they "are sure"....

[Ragsf15e]

8 hours ago, Thedude said:

I bought my first plane back in September and had an annual done at that point. I'm several months away from needing to do another, but I want to make sure I'm properly prepared. I want to take it to Top Gun in Ca, I'm an hour south of them flying wise. When should I start trying to book an annual? What should I bring? I have my logs digitized from the sale, I assume that should be sufficient? What else am I missing?

If that’s the shop you want (and it’s good, but will be $$ as @MikeOH says), then you should already be on their schedule.  Good shops are busy because they’re good.  I’d seriously call tomorrow to get on their schedule if you’re sure.

[47U]

17 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

I am sure there are some A&P's and shops that will not spend time researching further if they see "PCW". 

When I bought my ‘63C my IA had me go through the logs and document that all the ADs had been complied with.  He printed up an ‘AD Log’ separate from the airframe, engine, and prop logbooks.  The sign off in those log books now reads, “See AD Log for compliance.”

Sure enough, verifying compliance in the logbook sometimes isn’t enough.  As I was wrapping up my first 100 hr inspection prepping for the IA, one of the ‘RV Mafia’ (a term of endearment) was loitering about as they tend to do, and noticed that my prop oil line had blue (aluminum) B-nuts.  He pointed it out to me and I am glad he did.  I asked the previous owner and he said that the AD had been done, but the new oil line had chaffed so the A&P put the old line back on until he could get a new oil line with the steel (black) B-nuts.  Previous owner reimbursed me for the new oil line.

[Thedude]

Welp this sounds like it's going to be exciting. I've certainly been expecting the first annual to be more expensive, I'm not sure what general range, but I've been expecting it.

I got the plane through Gmax and used their recommended mechanic, which I was overall happy with, but that doesn't necessarily mean there isn't a rats nest of expenses...

I'm hesitant to put the logs in anyone else's trust, is it normal to give them all to the shop for on annual? If I provide them a copy, does that mean photo copying every page? 

Is there anything I can do before hand to potentially reduce cost? Eg compile ADs?

I chose top gun because I wanted quality work and I'm in central ca, if anyone has other recommendations please let me know.

[MikeOH]

Give Top Gun a call and find out the annual inspection cost.  Two years ago the annual inspection for my F was $3,120 flat. At the time their shop rate was $145/hr.  So, in theory, about 22 hours for the inspection itself.  Not sure what model you have; a J should be pretty similar, but no idea for newer models.  Obviously, no repairs are included in those numbers.

If you had a decent pre-buy, and historically Jimmy Garrison has been a solid guy, so I'd think you should be okay.  Still, I could see another $5K depending on what they find; they are THOROUGH! Again, not everything they'll find is going to be an airworthiness issue, so you'll have some room to control your outlay.

[LANCECASPER]

8 hours ago, Thedude said:

I'm hesitant to put the logs in anyone else's trust, is it normal to give them all to the shop for on annual? If I provide them a copy, does that mean photo copying every page? 

I use a Genius Scan app on my phone for scans - that way I can add pages to the pdf easily and I always have it with me. I always keep a copy on Dropbox.

I keep my logs safely in fire resistant strong box and do not take them to the shop. 

Using the Seller's recommended mechanic when you purchase can be expensive the next year. There's a reason the Seller recommends them. Have you thought about getting your annual done at the same shop that did it last year to ease the pain a little? It can take a few years to catch up on deferred maintenance and you can spread the cost out. Taking it to a big name MSC the first year they are going to probably assume you want an open checkbook annual. If you do that's fine, but sometimes those type of annuals are 10k.

[47U]

8 hours ago, Thedude said:

I chose top gun because I wanted quality work and I'm in central ca, if anyone has other recommendations please let me know.

A little farther out from Stockton, but Hangtown Aviation in Placerville has done my friend’s G model the last couple years.  They did a fuselage tube repair on a J model that involved de-skinning on the pilot’s side.  It was perfect.  I wouldn’t hesitate to use them.

And, a little farther out still, Lincoln Skyways has two Mooneys in their hangar right now, and one more on the ramp out front.  

[Pinecone]

NEVER give you actual logbooks to ANYONE until they go with the plane when you sell it.  If you did not get a PDF of your logs, then you have some work.  Or there are some places that will scan your logs for you, for a cost.  

I agree somewhat with the others about the first annual at a good MSC possibly being brutal, but not everything they find needs to be fixed immediately.  Ask them to divide it into 3 lists with prices.  List 1 is airworthiness things, that need to be done to complete the annual.   List 2 are things that are a bit less serious, but should be addressed very soon.  And List 3 are those things that you can leave until a later service or even the next annual.

Obviously List 1 must be done.  You can see how much of list 2 you can afford right not, and if not all the list, work with the shop on which ones to do.  If you have money left over from List 2, then start on List 3.

Realize there some things may have two prices.  One for now, during the annual, while things are apart and one for doing it stand alone with having to dissemble things.

FYI, @jetdriven says it takes about 34 hours to do the Mooney Annual/100hr inspection list, start to finish.   I would expect that on a first annual at a new shop and as a new owner.

[1980Mooney]

18 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

FYI, @jetdriven says it takes about 34 hours to do the Mooney Annual/100hr inspection list, start to finish.   I would expect that on a first annual at a new shop and as a new owner.

@MikeOH said above and in 2024 that Top Gun's shop rate was $145/hour.  A topic last year noted shop rates running from $95/hour to $145/hour with the average around $120/hour.  Here in the Houston area I just paid $115/hour for Annual.

That means you may be looking at about $4,900 for the basic Annual at Top Gun plus parts and repairs.  Perhaps Top Gun gives a discount on a flat rate for the Annual to get the repair business at full rate.

 

Edited Friday at 03:04 PM by 1980Mooney

[varlajo]

Wouldn't hurt to find a place that lets you help with the annual. You get to learn a lot about your plane and save a bit of money on trivial tasks, e.g. removing and reinstalling the cowling, wheels, inspection panels, and seats, oil and filter change, gascolator and finger screen service, brake fluid top off, etc. Easily 3-4 hours of work. 

[1980Mooney]

10 hours ago, Thedude said:

I'm hesitant to put the logs in anyone else's trust, is it normal to give them all to the shop for on annual? If I provide them a copy, does that mean photo copying every page? 

Is there anything I can do before hand to potentially reduce cost? Eg compile ADs?

I chose top gun because I wanted quality work and I'm in central ca, if anyone has other recommendations please let me know.

As others have said it is a good idea to have an electronic copy of the logs regardless.  That said, the physical original logs on my plane have always gone to the shop with the plane over the last 45 years.  The shops/mechanics that I use store the logs in a vault - I trust those shops and mechanics.  I have never had a problem.

I am sure that there are some horror stories out there.  It's your choice.

[MikeOH]

Like @1980Mooney I've always trusted the shops I've used with my physical logs.  I figure I'm trusting my life to their work, so why not the logs?  I don't have his 45 year record, only 7, but no issues.  If, someday, I have to recover from scans I may feel differently.

[Pinecone]

Too many stories about shops losing logs or not returning them to the customer over a dispute.

That can't lose what they don't have.  And they can't try to blackmail you with the logs without them.

Realize that losing the logs can drop the value of your plane by 30 - 40% easily.