Idea for an altitude and gear warning.

[Joshua Blackh4t]

So I was thinking about the danger of gear up landings and how the better alarms all need permanent wiring when I had an idea for a simple one. The more technical minded can chime in.

Arduino or Rasberry pi board, gps sensor, and an open source database of ground levels.

Light sensor attached to the gear light.

Battery powered, or 12v plug. Audible alarm when the acft is below 500ft AGL with gear light on.

Would be 100% portable, so no certification needed, can have status lights to check gps is working and gear is detected. 

Alarm can be out through a headphone plug, possibly even set at mic levels so it can be plugged into the intercom.

I see it as a small box attached to the dash, sensor on a lead stuck to the light, and thats about as intrusive as it needs to be.

Thoughts?

[MikeOH]

I'm not following why THIS alarm is any less likely to be ignored than existing ones?

[PeteMc]

2 hours ago, Joshua Blackh4t said:

Arduino or Rasberry pi board,

You've got the processing power, so in addition to the light, why not have a "GEAR GEAR GEAR" warning.  It could plug into the audio panel, have BT or the box could be big enough for a speaker and a small amp (which would be needed to make it loud enough). 

And I think you meant the audible alarm would go off when the gear light was OFF.

 

Edited November 26, 2024 by PeteMc

[Joshua Blackh4t]

50 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

You've got the processing power, so in addition to the light, why not have a "GEAR GEAR GEAR" warning.  It could plug into the audio panel, have BT or the box could be big enough for a speaker and a small amp (which would be needed to make it loud enough). 

And I think you meant the audible alarm would go off when the gear light was OFF.

 

Yeah, thats the idea. Very positive audio alert based on gps derived height agl and gear light status. Could be the down light or up light.

Down light is more positive about the gear, up light means it will sound if the sensor is dislodged from the light. Or even both. Light sensors are cheap.

Also, would be a terrain alarm whenever wheels are up.

So, probably only a couple hundred in parts, not much labour once its programmed, and 5 minutes to fit.

Obviously not as good as the LHS, but much cheaper and doesn't need a certified install.

Much better than the throttle position one which keeps annoying me at the wrong time. 

[skykrawler]

https://www.aircraftspruce.com/catalog/avpages/microkit_landinggear.php

But I think this sort of thing is a crutch.

[Pinecone]

How is it a crutch?  I see it as a last chance warning if every other check fails.  I installed one in my plane not long after buying it.

 

[Joshua Blackh4t]

The LHS is great, but it will take time and money to install. And has to be done by a mechanic.

I just want the function of the LHS for cheap and simple install.

I will take any crutch available to prevent a wheels up. The only time I see any issue is if you rely on hearing it to save you. If you never hear it, then thats great. If you hear it once in your lifetime, it payed for itself many times over.

 

[Pinecone]

Go for it.   Only possible issue is running out of Blue Tooth connections to your GPS.

[PeteMc]

9 hours ago, Joshua Blackh4t said:

Could be the down light or up light.

Ah yes, I guess there are some planes that have a Gear Up light.  The Mooney, Piper or Cessna planes I've flown all only had a Gear Down light. 

And I think I'd rather have any kind of warning system yell at me if I did not have a Gear Down/LOCKED light rather than a Gear Up light.  That burned out Gear Up light may become an issue, at least once.  But getting yelled at that the gear is not down (burned out light or not) I think would be the safer cross check. 

 

 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, PeteMc said:

Ah yes, I guess there are some planes that have a Gear Up light.  The Mooney, Piper or Cessna planes I've flown all only had a Gear Down light. 

And I think I'd rather have any kind of warning system yell at me if I did not have a Gear Down/LOCKED light rather than a Gear Up light.  That burned out Gear Up light may become an issue, at least once.  But getting yelled at that the gear is not down (burned out light or not) I think would be the safer cross check. 

My Mooney has two lights:  orange / red for Gear Unsafe [UP], and green for Gear Safe [DOWN]. Both are shown in the Owners Manual, just beside the honking big gear switch.

[toto]

Might be better to use the floor indicator than the panel indicator for aircraft so equipped. There’s a lot more room to stash a Raspberry Pi on the floor. 

[PeteMc]

20 minutes ago, Hank said:

My Mooney has two lights:  orange / red for Gear Unsafe [UP], and green for Gear Safe [DOWN].

Okay.  I don't remember a Gear Up in the F (Trophy) that I've ridden in a fair amount.  And also don't remember it in the J or Bravo.  I don't have it in the K either. 

But I think I can safely say ALL retractable gear aircraft will have a Gear Down light.

 

Edited November 26, 2024 by PeteMc

[EricJ]

14 minutes ago, PeteMc said:

Okay.  I don't remember a Gear Up in the F (Trophy) that I've ridden in a fair amount.  And also don't remember it in the J or Bravo.  I don't have it in the K either. 

But I think I can safely say ALL retractable gear aircraft will have a Gear Down light.

 

I think things like Mites and Culver Cadets don't.   Many of those don't even have electrical systems. 

Mites have the flag that waves at you if the gear isn't down.   I always thought that was cool.

[PeteMc]

1 hour ago, EricJ said:

I think things like Mites and Culver Cadets don't.   Many of those don't even have electrical systems. 

So I'm guessing those will not be in Joshua's market, unless there is a design change that would work with them. 

His original concept discussed a light sensor.  I'm just pointing out that the vast majority of planes, with gear lights, have gear DOWN lights, not nearly as many have gear UP lights, so designing off of gear UP might not be the best path. 

 

[MikeOH]

6 hours ago, EricJ said:

I think things like Mites and Culver Cadets don't.   Many of those don't even have electrical systems. 

Mites have the flag that waves at you if the gear isn't down.   I always thought that was cool.

I've always thought that system was as close to fool-proof as was possible (i.e. sufficiently talented fools are very rare)

I'm curious if there have been any gear-ups in Mites.

[EricJ]

16 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I've always thought that system was as close to fool-proof as was possible (i.e. sufficiently talented fools are very rare)

I'm curious if there have been any gear-ups in Mites.

Apparenty they weren't rare.   In one of the books about Al Mooney it talks about him making an inadvertent gear up in one.    Since the props were wood, they got it back up on the gear and put a new prop on it.   Simpler times. 

[dkkim73]

7 hours ago, toto said:

Might be better to use the floor indicator than the panel indicator for aircraft so equipped. There’s a lot more room to stash a Raspberry Pi on the floor. 

From what I've been told, that indicator is the most fool proof of all as it is mechanical. It's the one I focus on primarily. You can probably get some pretty decent image-recognition libraries for the Pi these days (or do something simpler). 

I think it's a clever idea, and will be a good learning experience (tech-wise and in terms of human factors and the aviation community), so I look forward to hearing how it goes! 

LHS already installed, very much like it. Esp. the call-outs for adjusting landing technique. It's only reminded me about gear twice. And welcome as I think I would have lowered it anyway, but didn't mind an extra voice (non-standard maneuvering, etc). 

D

[AJ88V]

I think training is better.  MAPA instructor Lee Fox really hammered me to do a last check of the gear switch somewhere on final (even through I was already checking the football after deploying the gear).

Now a laser altimeter like the Microkit that @skykrawler linked is really appealing, giving a lot more information. 

 

Someone posted up a 'portable' laser altimeter (Skyvoice Glassy, https://mooneyspace.com/topic/49979-fly-safely-with-portable-talking-radar-agl-altimeter/ ) but I'd rather have the Mircrokit installed than rely on this.

_

[Joshua Blackh4t]

8 minutes ago, AJ88V said:

I think training is better.  MAPA instructor Lee Fox really hammered me to do a last check of the gear switch somewhere on final (even through I was already checking the football after deploying the gear).

Now a laser altimeter like the Microkit that @skykrawler linked is really appealing, giving a lot more information. 

 

Someone posted up a 'portable' laser altimeter (Skyvoice Glassy, https://mooneyspace.com/topic/49979-fly-safely-with-portable-talking-radar-agl-altimeter/ ) but I'd rather have the Mircrokit installed than rely on this.

_

Unfortunately nothing can train you not to be forgetful and distracted.

Of course, the LHS is what I want. But it costs many thousands and has to be professionally installed. Or semi professional depending on how you feel about it.

I was thinking of something that is 100% portable, costs maybe $100 and might save my plane while waiting for an LHS.

The Holy Micro talking radar just seems to talk a lot and isn't really portable. It SAYS it gives you gear warnings but doesn't actually check if they are up or down. Also, its stuck out on the wing and has no way to talk to you unless you give up your Bluetooth connection for the whole flight.

 

[IvanP]

My guess is that the only foolproof way to prevent a gear-up landing is to fly a fixed gear plane  Modify the pre-laning check list - Gear down and welded. 

I do not belive that gear-ups are caused by insufficient warning systems in our planes. We just get distracted and ignore the audio and visual warnings. A good freind of mine with decades of experinece as an instructor and many thousands of hours managed to land gear up while doing a refresher training with a commercial pilot. Both commercial pilots were so focused on whatever they were doing at the time that they ignored the sonalert and missed the absence of gear down indicator light.

My vote is for more training rather than more gizmos. 

[larryb]

The Garmin 796 (and maybe others) has a NMEA sentence output that includes HAT, which is height above terrain. I did build something with a Microchip PIC to decode this and airspeed and the gear position and alarm if necessary. It worked well. It didn’t talk but it did light up and beep. But now I have the LHS and am no longer using my old design.

[Joshua Blackh4t]

1 hour ago, larryb said:

The Garmin 796 (and maybe others) has a NMEA sentence output that includes HAT, which is height above terrain. I did build something with a Microchip PIC to decode this and airspeed and the gear position and alarm if necessary. It worked well. It didn’t talk but it did light up and beep. But now I have the LHS and am no longer using my old design.

Annnnnd BINGO...  exactly what I was thinking.

Except I was going to use a light sensor rather than wired to gear switch to make it less intrusive.

Do you have any details about it?

 

As for training, I call BS. You CANNOT train yourself not to be distracted.

Many people have gear upped their planes and many of them were extremely well trained. Yes, good training (and more important, keeping current) are great, but one day it will be tired, non standard circuit, talkative panniccing passenger and all your training is forgotten. 

[toto]

19 minutes ago, Joshua Blackh4t said:

As for training, I call BS. You CANNOT train yourself not to be distracted.

Many people have gear upped their planes and many of them were extremely well trained. Yes, good training (and more important, keeping current) are great, but one day it will be tired, non standard circuit, talkative panniccing passenger and all your training is forgotten.

To be fair, plenty of pilots have also forgotten the gear with bells and whistles and flashing lights screaming at them all the way down the final approach.

 

[00-Negative]

5 hours ago, Joshua Blackh4t said:

As for training, I call BS. You CANNOT train yourself not to be distracted.

This is what I deal with all day every day at work. That emphatic statement suggests that the etiology of our ever-more distracted  and attention deficit population is somehow organic. Are some people just unfortunately born with this disease of being more distracted than others and nothing can be done about it? If so, why is this not screened or tested for prior to obtaining a license to pilot an aircraft with passengers? Seems extremely dangerous to put unfortunate "distracted persons" that will not benefit from training in positions requiring high levels of focus. It is not a disease. It is a set of behaviors, habits, and mannerisms completely controllable by the pilot or person in mind. On the contrary, I believe that we can train ourselves to focus and operate without distraction. I haven't analyzed any statistical data, but I suspect that the rate of gear-ups among military pilots is much lower than that of civilian pilots. The most glaring variables are training and consequences. Both of which are much higher among military pilots. 

I bought the Microkit LHS system when it was on sale around a year ago. Was maybe $800-900 or so. I installed it myself without any hiccups and what a world of difference it made mostly with night landings and landing with passengers/baggage. I fly a lot solo and make good landings in different configurations and conditions. The ground-effect characteristics and sink rate are quite different when I'm loaded down with fuel, family,. and baggage. 

-David

[Pinecone]

14 hours ago, Joshua Blackh4t said:

Of course, the LHS is what I want. But it costs many thousands and has to be professionally installed.

LHS us $1165.  So not many thousands.   Even with 6 hours for install, it is under $2000.