Three Near CFITs In Two Months

[GeeBee]

What is going on? Professionally flown by ATPs, two man cockpit, latest glass and yet they almost put them in the dirt. Two on approach, one on go-around. All in the space of about 60 days. I am curious in how the flight guidance was set up in these instances and if there is a common denominator in the flight guidance set up.

https://onemileatatime.com/news/near-disaster-southwest-737-tampa/

 

[Hank]

ATC and Pilots have been hired for the last decade based on diversity goals rather than competence; ATC schools have been admitting students based on written summaries of how they have overcome obstacles in their lives instead of on academic achievement.

To me, this is a likely contributor even if not the primary cause.

I'd much rather have the best qualified people up in the cockpit, rather than someone with lesser qualifications, lower capabilities but the "politically correct" race / gender / orientation.

[dkkim73]

50 minutes ago, Hank said:

ATC and Pilots have been hired for the last decade based on diversity goals rather than competence; 

Yeah, restricting the pool of applicants to "chosen characteristics" seems like a bad idea for several reasons. It seems that, with all the motion in that vein, the burden of proof is shifting to them to prove it isn't material.

On a humorous transition from the above: 

https://babylonbee.com/news/airlines-offering-100-upgrade-where-youre-guaranteed-an-old-male-pilot-named-steve

 

[NickG]

11 hours ago, Hank said:

ATC and Pilots have been hired for the last decade based on diversity goals rather than competence; ATC schools have been admitting students based on written summaries of how they have overcome obstacles in their lives instead of on academic achievement.

To me, this is a likely contributor even if not the primary cause.

I'd much rather have the best qualified people up in the cockpit, rather than someone with lesser qualifications, lower capabilities but the "politically correct" race / gender / orientation.

Perhaps, rather than a diversity issue it’s more an a issue of the requirements and the race to 1500 which values hours spent in a piper warrior or c172 as suitable experience to open the doors to the airlines.

having said that, I have a nephew and his fiance, both went that route that went from training to sky west to Southwest and then one to United and the other to Delta within the space of two or three years or so. They are both great pilots.

Training, training, training is the issue I think.

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, NickG said:

Perhaps, rather than a diversity issue it’s more an a issue of the requirements and the race to 1500 which values hours spent in a piper warrior or c172 as suitable experience to open the doors to the airlines.

having said that, I have a nephew and his fiance, both went that route that went from training to sky west to Southwest and then one to United and the other to Delta within the space of two or three years or so. They are both great pilots.

Training, training, training is the issue I think.

I'm not sure I'm following your argument...are you saying that the FAA adding the 1500 experience requirement has resulted in LESS trained pilots than before it was imposed?  If so, I need help understanding that logic.

[GeeBee]

I am not sure of the exact common issues here without more information. If I was the D of Ops I would take some actions until I had all the common issues in hand and trained out.

1. No night visuals

2. No visuals less than 5 abd 5

3. MCP altitude cannot ever be less than 1000’ agl visual, MDA instrument.

4. RA set to 1000 on all visuals

5. Terrain onat least one nav during a visial

6. Pitch in G/A mode during go around until selected missed approach altitude is captured 

[dkkim73]

2 hours ago, MikeOH said:

I'm not sure I'm following your argument...are you saying that the FAA adding the 1500 experience requirement has resulted in LESS trained pilots than before it was imposed?  If so, I need help understanding that logic.

NickG can speak to his original meaning, but I took it to mean that the 1500 hr requirement has resulted in an emphasis on quantity over quality of flight experience. With the increased cost of GA flying in the last couple decades, I might imagine some trade-offs would be made. But I haven't walked that path, and the devil is in the details. Maybe someone here has done that recently and can opine. 

An insider I asked said Rwy 10 at that location is an unusual assignment. Also speculated that wind shear and/or rain would be additive factors. Also asserted all speculation is premature. 

Also: My own comment on the DEI issue was editorializing on a potentially dissynergistic trend, not asserting that it was directly contributory in this case. I'm just very skeptical of upending traditional standards in high-reliability fields (aviation, medicine, critical infrastructure engineering, etc). 

[Andy95W]

17 hours ago, Hank said:

ATC and Pilots have been hired for the last decade based on diversity goals rather than competence; 

Sorry, Hank, this simply isn’t true.  They may hire people who are diverse AND competent, not RATHER than competent.  But far and away the vast majority of those new pilots are still white males.

I personally have seen no significant difference in the new First Officers I’ve flown with, regardless of color or gender.  In fact, the worst F/O I’ve flow with was a white male who wasn’t new.  He had failed captain upgrade twice.  Every woman I’ve flown with did a great job and all have become good captains. 

[Hank]

3 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Sorry, Hank, this simply isn’t true.  They may hire people who are diverse AND competent, not RATHER than competent.  But far and away the vast majority of those new pilots are still white males.

I personally have seen no significant difference in the new First Officers I’ve flown with, regardless of color or gender.  In fact, the worst F/O I’ve flow with was a white male who wasn’t new.  He had failed captain upgrade twice.  Every woman I’ve flown with did a great job and all have become good captains. 

My comment was more directed at ATC hires, where performance in school has been downgraded in preference to essays about overcoming hardship in the applicant's life.

I see no correlation between the new 1500 hour requirement and pilot performance. Even this requirement would not have kept either pilot out of the Buffalo crash that the 1500 hour rule came from.

[NickG]

5 hours ago, MikeOH said:

I'm not sure I'm following your argument...are you saying that the FAA adding the 1500 experience requirement has resulted in LESS trained pilots than before it was imposed?  If so, I need help understanding that logic.

No, as @dkkim73 said,  I’m saying the emphasis is on quantity over quality. Does it really make a difference to you whether the person in pointy end of the airliner is male, female, or any particular color or has an accent? It’s how well trained they are that’s the issue. So if there’s an increase in near CFIT accidents, it needs to to be addressed through training the current pool and modifying the training curriculum for future pilots.

[GeeBee]

I don't see DEI as a player here because it is a persistent problem that is cropping up across the system and across seniorities. My guess is too much "snapshot" simulator work without enough time to allow errors to show in the fullness of time and procedure. The pressure to get everything in within the allotted simulator time is tremendous and the use of "snapshot scenarios" often does not allow the student or instructor to "paint the masterpiece". I remember when I checked out on the B737 we were at Flight Safety/E-R in Daytona Beach. We were two complete crews. On the day of our check ride we both entered the simulators at the same time. I passed my ride and said, "Beer is on me" and my APD said, "Well your buddy did not pass". Sigh!. Well it turned out he got down to 2000 feet 25 miles from the FAF rather than within the 10 miles charted. Again, it was the "snapshot training" that put him in the position where he did not have enough practice painting the whole picture. He passed his re-check by the way. 

LOFT (Line Oriented Flight Training) is supposed to alleviate this problem, but I don't see enough LOFT work in most training syllabi.

[MikeOH]

37 minutes ago, NickG said:

No, as @dkkim73 said,  I’m saying the emphasis is on quantity over quality. Does it really make a difference to you whether the person in pointy end of the airliner is male, female, or any particular color as has an accent? It the how well trained they are thats the issue.

And, my point was, absent any other evidence, I’m not seeing how the requirement for more hours equates to a demonstrable cause for lower quality.

Kind of like your implication that I care about anything other than competence; what evidence from my post can you cite that I care about any other trait?

[NickG]

57 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

And, my point was, absent any other evidence, I’m not seeing how the requirement for more hours equates to a demonstrable cause for lower quality.

Kind of like your implication that I care about anything other than competence; what evidence from my post can you cite that I care about any other trait?

@MikeOH..you are correct. I thought you were the OP. 

[NickG]

20 hours ago, Hank said:

ATC and Pilots have been hired for the last decade based on diversity goals rather than competence; ATC schools have been admitting students based on written summaries of how they have overcome obstacles in their lives instead of on academic achievement.

To me, this is a likely contributor even if not the primary cause.

I'd much rather have the best qualified people up in the cockpit, rather than someone with lesser qualifications, lower capabilities but the "politically correct" race / gender / orientation.

So what you are saying was that the diversity goals are lowering standards in order to meet various quotas? Because regardless what the admission procedures are comprised of, whether an essay about one’s life or a self portrait in oils, if the standards haven’t been lowered to graduate pilots then it shouldn’t matter. Now, if you don’t believe in DEI or any of that stuff, thats a different discussion.

[Falcon Man]

Opinions based on reptile brain thinking, conformational bias, assumptions, etc. all lead to false narratives; I for one would like to see the data if it exists!!!!

[GeeBee]

Looking at the ADS-B data, it looks to be a near constant 1000' FPM which says V/S mode may have been engaged. How did they let it get through the selected altitude? It looks like bad handling for the MCP (autopilot) panel. A lesson here for us Mooney pilots in particular with GFC-500 and GFC 700 autopilots. 

[Pinecone]

Garmin's ,mantra is to always check the AP annunciator after hitting a button to see what the AP thinks you are asking it to do.

[GeeBee]

46 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Garmin's ,mantra is to always check the AP annunciator after hitting a button to see what the AP thinks you are asking it to do.

That is true in Boeing and Airbus as well but V/S is a very dangerous mode because you can fly the airplane away from the selected and captured altitude.

[T. Peterson]

On 7/20/2024 at 9:07 PM, GeeBee said:

What is going on? Professionally flown by ATPs, two man cockpit, latest glass and yet they almost put them in the dirt. Two on approach, one on go-around. All in the space of about 60 days. I am curious in how the flight guidance was set up in these instances and if there is a common denominator in the flight guidance set up.

https://onemileatatime.com/news/near-disaster-southwest-737-tampa/

 

I believe there is a reluctance to give up on the auto pilot regardless of whether it is an actual fault, incorrect programming or incorrect manipulation. This is in my opinion due to an over reliance on automation. It doesn’t matter whether it is my fault or an equipment malfunction, I must be comfortable with clicking every thing off and hand flying the airplane in instrument conditions. Over dependence on automation is I think a weakness of the professional pilot group.

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, T. Peterson said:

I believe there is a reluctance to give up on the auto pilot regardless of whether it is an actual fault, incorrect programming or incorrect manipulation. This is in my opinion due to an over reliance on automation. It doesn’t matter whether it is my fault or an equipment malfunction, I must be comfortable with clicking every thing off and hand flying the airplane in instrument conditions. Over dependence on automation is I think a weakness of the professional pilot group.

I think you're on to something with that theory.

I'm the other extreme and probably should work more on using my AP!  I'm looking for any reason to turn the thing off vs. reasons not to

I have a very simple two-axis AP, STEC-30 w/AH, but I often click it off at a moments notice.  All of my training for private and instrument was in planes without APs, and I rented planes without APs for decades before buying my Mooney 7 years ago.  I'm just more used to hand flying, I guess. Love the AP for cross-country but, honestly, in a terminal environment I'd rather hand fly.

[T. Peterson]

17 minutes ago, MikeOH said:

I think you're on to something with that theory.

I'm the other extreme and probably should work more on using my AP!  I'm looking for any reason to turn the thing off vs. reasons not to

I have a very simple two-axis AP, STEC-30 w/AH, but I often click it off at a moments notice.  All of my training for private and instrument was in planes without APs, and I rented planes without APs for decades before buying my Mooney 7 years ago.  I'm just more used to hand flying, I guess. Love the AP for cross-country but, honestly, in a terminal environment I'd rather hand fly.

Your philosophy mirrors mine to a “T”.  I use my auto pilot in the enroute phase, but in the approach phase it is off.

[Mooney in Oz]

10 hours ago, GeeBee said:

That is true in Boeing and Airbus as well but V/S is a very dangerous mode because you can fly the airplane away from the selected and captured altitude.

V/S mode needs to be properly monitored, particularly when climbing.

It can easily be forgotten and if you enter bad enough icing conditions, it will keep trimming up without you noticing to maintain the entered climb rate while the speed decays. If this is not noticed, it can lead to a stall.

It has happened before.

[GeeBee]

9 hours ago, T. Peterson said:

I believe there is a reluctance to give up on the auto pilot regardless of whether it is an actual fault, incorrect programming or incorrect manipulation. This is in my opinion due to an over reliance on automation. It doesn’t matter whether it is my fault or an equipment malfunction, I must be comfortable with clicking every thing off and hand flying the airplane in instrument conditions. Over dependence on automation is I think a weakness of the professional pilot group.

There is no doubt that there is a paucity of skill in hand flying of late. However there is also times when the A/P is required for an approach such as PRM, CAT II and CAT III so skill in both is required of the professional pilot. 

[midlifeflyer]

20 minutes ago, GeeBee said:

There is no doubt that there is a paucity of skill in hand flying of late. However there is also times when the A/P is required for an approach such as PRM, CAT II and CAT III so skill in both is required of the professional pilot. 

Agree.  That's why for me, flight reviews are focused on  pilot skills; IPCs are focused on avionics  skills (no, "focused" doesn't mean "exclusive").

[neilpilot]

Why did the SWA flight into Tampa divert to FLL?  I would have expected it to climb and, if necessary, request another entry for the TPA approach.