What should I upgrade next?

[gwav8or]

So this last year I upgraded the panel on my '67F.  I did dual G5, GPS, Clock, throttle, prop, mix cables and a new panel overlay.

Right now, I'm fixing a few things under the hood but once I get those taken care of I'll start saving up for the next upgrade.

I'm trying to decide between an Autopilot and an Engine Monitor.

For the AP I'll go with the GFC500 and for the EM I'll go with the JPI EDM900.  Reason for both those specific choices is that I had the shop cut places for each in the new panel.

I originally planned on doing the engine monitor first.  However, as important (or nice to have) as the information from an engine monitor is, I'm afraid I'll start chasing "ghost" temperature issues.  As for an AP, that would be really nice to have for IFR flying and is a great safety add on too.

So, which should I do first and why?  Just curious as to your thoughts.

[Pinecone]

My thought is AP first.  You will get a lot of use out of it, and it greatly enhances safety.

Engine monitor is a lot cheaper though.

 

[PT20J]

If you fly IFR, I would prioritize the AP. With modern GPS navigators you need to do a lot more pregaming than in the old days and it's hard to fly precisely on instrument while pushing buttons and turning knobs without the autopilot. And if you blow an altitude and cause a loss of separation you're likely going to hear from the FAA.

Ever since the APS course and LOP became a thing, a some folks just wouldn't fly without an engine monitor. But, everyone flew for decades without them. You can even run LOP without one. Just lean until it gets rough and richen slightly just until it smooths out. How many degrees LOP is that? Who knows? Who cares? It's as lean as you can run smoothly. 

[ArtVandelay]

I don’t understand why you already cut the panel for the 900. Big upside of installing a certified engine monitor is removing the old legacy instruments.

[Echo]

Engine monitor. Because you wanna know what the engine is doing even if you don’t like it it will alert you to potential problems before they are catastrophic knowing fuel flow also added safety bonus. You say you want the GFC, but other options may become available

[M20F]

I flew 20yrs with no autopilot.  I now have 15yrs with one.  I would go autopilot 150% if you do any IFR or cross country.  I also have a MVP-50.  
 
Engine monitor value is wildly over stated and the vast majority of planes fly on original and often broken gauges just fine.  

[FlySafe]

The two best upgrades for me have been the GFC500 and the sidewinder tug. I flew many years hard IFR without either, but it's like a hangar; you would not consider not having once you have—the reduced work, safety, and ease of use are transformative and appreciated on every flight.  Also, I have the EDM830 EM, and while I value the detailed information for optimizing the engine performance, early ID of problems, and troubleshooting, it would be further down my upgrade list (revisit this rank after actual inflight engine failure).  Good luck with your upgrades, and fly safe

k 

[Echo]

It takes a couple of days to put it and monitor in. What is the timeframe for installing and troubleshooting a new auto pilot? I would guess there would be significant downtime.

[PT20J]

5 minutes ago, Echo said:

It takes a couple of days to put it and monitor in. What is the timeframe for installing and troubleshooting a new auto pilot? I would guess there would be significant downtime.

G5s are already installed so I'll bet a shop that has done this before could do it in 1-2 weeks depending on what they run into with the airframe. There isn't really any troubleshooting. It's all digital and there are built in ways to test the installation completely on the ground. You just have to mount the servos, GMC, Go Around and yoke switches and circuit breakers and run power and CAN bus.

[0TreeLemur]

To me, the engine monitor is the best "first" upgrade to a legacy airframe.  If primary like the EDM900, it lets you eliminate lots of other stuff that really cleans up the panel.   I've been flying behind the EDM900 for over six years and have never been mislead by the temperature indications.   In each instance when a temperature was odd, something was wrong that I wouldn't have known about without the engine monitor.  The EDM900's I've used are extremely reliable and useful.  Since upgrading to an airframe with a fuel injected engine, I've saved a LOT of fuel with the engine monitor.

A good A/P is fantastic for IFR flight but as others have mentioned is mucho dinero and more down time.

 

[McMooney]

If i had the Funds I'd go AP first then put in a garmin gi-275 engine monitor

 

hopefully trutrak get's there stuff together before i spend on the AP

[gwav8or]

6 hours ago, Pinecone said:

My thought is AP first.  You will get a lot of use out of it, and it greatly enhances safety.

Engine monitor is a lot cheaper though.

 

This is where I'm at too but honestly with the work on the panel that I've already done, the AP and engine monitor aren't that many AMUs different in price.

[gwav8or]

55 minutes ago, 0TreeLemur said:

To me, the engine monitor is the best "first" upgrade to a legacy airframe.  If primary like the EDM900, it lets you eliminate lots of other stuff that really cleans up the panel.   I've been flying behind the EDM900 for over six years and have never been mislead by the temperature indications.   In each instance when a temperature was odd, something was wrong that I wouldn't have known about without the engine monitor.  The EDM900's I've used are extremely reliable and useful.  Since upgrading to an airframe with a fuel injected engine, I've saved a LOT of fuel with the engine monitor.

A good A/P is fantastic for IFR flight but as others have mentioned is mucho dinero and more down time.

 

Yeah, with engines costing more and more to OH/rebuild that's my primary reason for wanting the monitor.  But with the work that I've already done the installation cost and number of hours quoted for each aren't that far apart.

[gwav8or]

6 hours ago, PT20J said:

If you fly IFR, I would prioritize the AP. With modern GPS navigators you need to do a lot more pregaming than in the old days and it's hard to fly precisely on instrument while pushing buttons and turning knobs without the autopilot. And if you blow an altitude and cause a loss of separation you're likely going to hear from the FAA.

Ever since the APS course and LOP became a thing, a some folks just wouldn't fly without an engine monitor. But, everyone flew for decades without them. You can even run LOP without one. Just lean until it gets rough and richen slightly just until it smooths out. How many degrees LOP is that? Who knows? Who cares? It's as lean as you can run smoothly. 

My plan is to fly more IFR and that's why I'm wanting the AP.  Wonder if I could get closer to LOP with the single EGT that I already have?

[gwav8or]

1 hour ago, Echo said:

It takes a couple of days to put it and monitor in. What is the timeframe for installing and troubleshooting a new auto pilot? I would guess there would be significant downtime.

Shop quoted 30-40 hours for the EDM900 and 40-50 for the GFC500.  So if that's accurate (they were right on schedule for my last avionics upgrade), not a huge difference.

[gwav8or]

5 hours ago, Echo said:

Engine monitor. Because you wanna know what the engine is doing even if you don’t like it it will alert you to potential problems before they are catastrophic knowing fuel flow also added safety bonus. You say you want the GFC, but other options may become available

Yeah, that was my original plan.  To do the monitor first for the exact reasons you mention.  I'm pretty solid on my decision for the GFC.  I've only flown behind it one time in another aircraft but I think it's a fantastic AP.  With already having other garmin gear installed, I want to keep things in the same family.

[gwav8or]

6 hours ago, ArtVandelay said:

I don’t understand why you already cut the panel for the 900. Big upside of installing a certified engine monitor is removing the old legacy instruments.

Sorry Art but the 900 is going where I want it, not where it's convenient.  But honestly, nobody but me needs to understand the why behind my decision. ;-)

[M20F]

20 minutes ago, gwav8or said:

Sorry Art but the 900 is going where I want it, not where it's convenient.  But honestly, nobody but me needs to understand the why behind my decision. ;-)

His point wasn’t where you put the 900 it is you are going to have a big hole when you pull out all the legacy gauges you no longer need.  

[McMooney]

you can fly lop just fine.   do it under 65% horsepower and supposedly it doesn't matter as you can't hurt the engine, atleast that's what the book says

Edited July 12, 2024 by McMooney

[gwav8or]

His point wasn’t where you put the 900 it is you are going to have a big hole when you pull out all the legacy gauges you no longer need.  

He was assuming I didn’t plan for that.


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[Jim Peace]

Do both at the same time. Reduces downtime and labor overall. Why rip out your panel twice?  Why have two long periods of downtime twice? Why spend the extra money?

If you don’t have the extra money you may be ahead by getting a loan and financing it vs having two shop visits and all the headaches twice. 

[Pinecone]

21 hours ago, PT20J said:

G5s are already installed so I'll bet a shop that has done this before could do it in 1-2 weeks depending on what they run into with the airframe. There isn't really any troubleshooting. It's all digital and there are built in ways to test the installation completely on the ground. You just have to mount the servos, GMC, Go Around and yoke switches and circuit breakers and run power and CAN bus.

And less time than some installs as there is not existing brackets and servos and wiring to remove.

[gwav8or]

4 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

Do both at the same time. Reduces downtime and labor overall. Why rip out your panel twice?  Why have two long periods of downtime twice? Why spend the extra money?

If you don’t have the extra money you may be ahead by getting a loan and financing it vs having two shop visits and all the headaches twice. 

Truth.  I just don't like loans and I'm also a bit impatient.  I could probably wait a few extra months and do both at the same time though.  May do that.

[M20F]

On 7/11/2024 at 6:50 PM, gwav8or said:

He was assuming I didn’t plan for that.


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I don’t know how you plan to fill a hole in a cut panel, but you do you.