231 down near Columbia River Gorge, Troutdale (KTTD)

[1980Mooney]

37 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

No information on a medical. I’ve never seen that before - I’ve seen expired and Basic Med, but never No Medical


The issue date is just the last time he asked for a new card or changed addresses.

You can Boettcher last dollar that they'll check into his license and medical this time.  

Strange.  During the investigation of the February 2020 crash he had a medical:

• Medical Certification: Class 3 With Waivers/Limitations
  Last FAA Medical Exam: 06/06/2018

[wombat]

I really don't like this thread.    It feels to me like a lot of finger pointing and blaming and more than a little holier-than-thou.  And nothing we can take away from it other than this dude's name, home address, and previous mistakes.

So I'll try to change that.   

 

Based on the facts we know so far, what are some things we could do to keep ourselves, the flying fleet, and other pilots, passengers and others safe? 

I think we should look for things where we might be able to find a similar situation that is about to happen and intervene.   By 'intervene' I mean have a friendly chat with the pilot, which might turn a little more preachy and less friendly depending on how it goes, or if you are a CFI being less willing to sign off on a BFR, or if things are actually bad enough, going to the FAA.

One thing that is pretty obvious is that he's had two previous incidents.   If we know anyone with even one incident it's probably worth taking extra time as a fellow pilot to watch how they behave and be willing to offer helpful advice when we see them doing things not by the book.   Things like using the checklists, or fuel planning, or preflight and maintenance.   And their medical, currency, and proficiency.    Maybe if one of us knows a pilot like this, be willing to lend a hand and go fly with them.  Either demonstrate in our own plane the behaviors we wish they had, or as a pilot-rated passenger (or low-cost CFI) to urge them to follow the correct procedures in their own plane.

The ADS-B mismatch is another thing.  This I think gives us advance warning that this owner isn't doing everything by the book; in my opinion it's more likely that if this thing is wrong there are other things wrong with the plane.  Maybe there are significant fuel leaks and/or the fuel gauges don't work right.  This could be the cause of this specific accident and if a friendly hanger neighbor had been looking, they could have chatted with this guy and helped him understand the value in following all of the regulations and ended up catching this before the plane went into the water.

Anything else that we could identify before the incident itself in another pilot our ourselves where we should make take an action to prevent something like this in the future?

[LANCECASPER]

18 minutes ago, wombat said:

I really don't like this thread.    It feels to me like a lot of finger pointing and blaming and more than a little holier-than-thou.  And nothing we can take away from it other than this dude's name, home address, and previous mistakes.

So I'll try to change that.   

 

Based on the facts we know so far, what are some things we could do to keep ourselves, the flying fleet, and other pilots, passengers and others safe? 

I think we should look for things where we might be able to find a similar situation that is about to happen and intervene.   By 'intervene' I mean have a friendly chat with the pilot, which might turn a little more preachy and less friendly depending on how it goes, or if you are a CFI being less willing to sign off on a BFR, or if things are actually bad enough, going to the FAA.

One thing that is pretty obvious is that he's had two previous incidents.   If we know anyone with even one incident it's probably worth taking extra time as a fellow pilot to watch how they behave and be willing to offer helpful advice when we see them doing things not by the book.   Things like using the checklists, or fuel planning, or preflight and maintenance.   And their medical, currency, and proficiency.    Maybe if one of us knows a pilot like this, be willing to lend a hand and go fly with them.  Either demonstrate in our own plane the behaviors we wish they had, or as a pilot-rated passenger (or low-cost CFI) to urge them to follow the correct procedures in their own plane.

The ADS-B mismatch is another thing.  This I think gives us advance warning that this owner isn't doing everything by the book; in my opinion it's more likely that if this thing is wrong there are other things wrong with the plane.  Maybe there are significant fuel leaks and/or the fuel gauges don't work right.  This could be the cause of this specific accident and if a friendly hanger neighbor had been looking, they could have chatted with this guy and helped him understand the value in following all of the regulations and ended up catching this before the plane went into the water.

Anything else that we could identify before the incident itself in another pilot our ourselves where we should make take an action to prevent something like this in the future?

It's a tough conversation to have but helping a pilot or driver you're close to know when it's time to hand the keys to someone else is necessary sometimes. The main takeaway for me on this is if anyone close noticed cognitive decline and would have had that tough conversation an accident or two ago, that would have been a good thing . .  and maybe they did. Miraculously he has not hurt himself or anyone else. . .  yet. But it reaches a point where if the person you care about won't comply then you have to let someone else decide if they are competent to make those decisions.

My brother who is 15 years older was recently diagnosed with Lewy Body Dementia and months before that diagnosis, as someone who will always be known as his "little brother".  having that conversation with him about driving wasn't easy to start, but thankfully he took it well. The easiest explanation was that the doctor didn't feel it was a good idea, which he didn't, and that I agreed with him,  but that if things improved and the doctor feels differently we can talk about it. 

[wombat]

Good point, I should have picked up on the fact that the pilot is pretty old and this might be a factor as well.   I'll add that to the list of things to watch for.

 

How many of us ever actually say anything to our fellow pilots when we see something that is a slight indicator of potential risky behaviors and actions?     I'm a CFI and unless I'm being paid to do so, I find it really hard to criticize other people's behaviors unless it's very clearly dangerous.

Edited June 26 by wombat
Added wording to make it clear that my question is about slight indications of slight risk.

[Skates97]

15 minutes ago, wombat said:

I think we should look for things where we might be able to find a similar situation that is about to happen and intervene.   By 'intervene' I mean have a friendly chat with the pilot, which might turn a little more preachy and less friendly depending on how it goes, or if you are a CFI being less willing to sign off on a BFR, or if things are actually bad enough, going to the FAA.

These are all nice suggestions, but if someone is going to continue to fly there is not much that can be done about it. I'm not saying that is the case with this pilot, but it does happen.

I had a friend who fit into that category. One of the nicest guys you ever met. On numerous occasions there were many pilots who shared concerns (very directly) with him about his flying, planning, ADM, etc... More than one occasion where he took off over gross (not just a few pounds) and got away with it, barely. Climb rates of 50-100fpm which should have been much higher even at the DA's he was operating at. A very good AP/IA would no longer work on his plane because there were things that should have been addressed which the owner refused to address, so the owner just found someone willing to pencil whip an annual. Conversations were had between the AP/IA and the local FSDO about the airworthiness concerns yet the FSDO wouldn't do anything to look into it because it is hearsay and maybe just an upset mechanic complaining. All of us that knew and liked the pilot refused to fly with him because of said concerns and discouraged others from flying with him, explaining why. The sad end was that he killed himself along with three others when he took off, likely too heavy for the short strip and terrain which required a decent climb rate, high DA, according to the NTSB an engine that was not making full power due to worn intake camlobes, with a slight tailwind. The result is that he stalled/spun in when the plane refused to outclimb the oncoming trees.  

[exM20K]

1 hour ago, redbaron1982 said:

I expect he is going to get a very personalized insurance premium.... I don't want to pay for his mishaps!

He may very well be flying uninsured.

-dan

[wombat]

17 minutes ago, Skates97 said:

These are all nice suggestions, but if someone is going to continue to fly there is not much that can be done about it. I'm not saying that is the case with this pilot, but it does happen.

My suggestion here is not a recipe for absolute safety, but maybe it's something that can help a little, some of the time.  I'd like to do something to help.    Hand wringing and finger pointing doesn't seem to me to be helpful so I tried to make a suggestion that would help at least a little. 

What you are saying sounds a little like the hazardous attitude of Resignation.    I think we can make a difference even if we don't have absolute control over it.     https://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/course_content.aspx?cID=723&sID=1448&preview=true     The antidote for that is "I’m not helpless. ?I can make a difference.

 

You do bring up a really good point with your friend... If I had a friend like that, what actions could I or should I take?    Would it be reasonable to at some point sabotage the plane to make it so airworthy he couldn't even try to take off?    Document specific provable FAR violations to send to the FAA?

I've got a friend whose actions as a pilot make me cringe so much because they are risky, but as far as I know, they are legal....    He loves flying that way, but...  Ugh.

 

[RescueMunchkin]

13 hours ago, wombat said:

Interesting.  I fly into KTTD occasionally so I'm somewhat familiar with the area.  It sounds like he was arriving from the North to land, and when I do that I always just fly the approach directly into base, but the news reports the pilot as saying "“I was coming downwind to land in Troutdale. As I was turning to base..."

So I'm a little confused what was going on.    I would expect the ATC radio traffic is a more clear picture.

 

A approach from the North with a base that far out is very typical, at the North side of the Columbia river the Portland class C has a floor of 1,700' and even further North is only has a floor of 2,000'.   It's easiest to stay further East of that so you can descend at a normal rate rather than having to stay down below the C for so long.

He departed using the north bank transition (transition through the PDX Class C surface area to the west), so it also sounds like he used the same transition to return back to KTTD.  Without the ADS-B track available, we can't see where he ended up going, but this transition he used is pretty standard for heading westbound out of KTTD or inbound from the west.

Edited June 26 by RescueMunchkin

[Skates97]

34 minutes ago, wombat said:

My suggestion here is not a recipe for absolute safety, but maybe it's something that can help a little, some of the time.  I'd like to do something to help.    Hand wringing and finger pointing doesn't seem to me to be helpful so I tried to make a suggestion that would help at least a little. 

What you are saying sounds a little like the hazardous attitude of Resignation.    I think we can make a difference even if we don't have absolute control over it.     https://www.faasafety.gov/gslac/ALC/course_content.aspx?cID=723&sID=1448&preview=true    

You do bring up a really good point with your friend... If I had a friend like that, what actions could I or should I take?    Would it be reasonable to at some point sabotage the plane to make it so airworthy he couldn't even try to take off?    Document specific provable FAR violations to send to the FAA?

I've got a friend whose actions as a pilot make me cringe so much because they are risky, but as far as I know, they are legal....    He loves flying that way, but...  Ugh.

 

You're not serious, are you? Disabling someone else's plane is a recipe for a lot of problems.

I did not say anything about just keeping quiet and letting someone go about their business, resigned to the fact that they are going to do so anyway. If the situation happened again I (and others) would likely do the same thing we did before, have conversations with the individual to try and effect a change in their behavior. I was stating the obvious that sometimes there truly is nothing you can do (legally) to prevent someone from flying if they are determined to do so. I don't think that is a hazardous attitude, it is reality.

[wombat]

I'm serious about the question.  Is it ever reasonable?

As an extreme made-up example, if I see some dude that is obviously drunk loading 6 kids into his Mooney in low IFR conditions at night saying "We're going to go for a super fun airplane ride!! Wheee!!!" I'm going to take his keys or pop his tires or block the plane in with my car so he can't take off.   I'd deal with the fallout from that and be satisfied I made the right decision.

I understand that there are people who are going to continue to make riskier decisions than we think are safe no matter how often we talk to them politely.    When should we escalate beyond a friendly conversation? How far should we go?  In what situations?     For some level of risky behavior, it's appropriate to just shake our head and move on.   For some level we should probably chat with them.... Where is the right level for each?

What steps are there that we can take?

• Have a subtle, polite conversation.
• Have a non-subtle direct but polite conversation.
• Have a direct and accusatory conversation, maybe described as an argument.
• Talk to people who might be impacted like passengers or have other interests like the local CFI or A&P.  (example: If you see a person who might get into the bad pilot's plane you shout across the taxiway at them "Hey, I wouldn't get into the plane with that guy.  You are putting your life at risk!")
• Talk to the FSDO.
• ???

 

[jrwilson]

14 hours ago, 1980Mooney said:

It appears that three (3) Mooney M20K's owned by this pilot have been destroyed in the last 4 years. Two of the crashes are documented in the Aviation Safety Network Database.  The N number's are the same and they are both M20K's but the planes are different model years with different serial numbers.  The third M20K was purchased between the 2 crashes.  There is no record of anything happening to it; however it wound up at BAS with bent wings. It is currently being sold for parts.

• In February 2020 he crash-landed N231VM - it was a 1980 M20K ser. no. 25-0426
  • Loss of control Accident Mooney M20K N231VM, (flightsafety.org)
  • Kathryn's Report: Landing Gear Collapse: Mooney M20K, N231VM; accident occurred February 14, 2020 at Minden-Tahoe Airport (KMEV), Douglas County, Nevada (kathrynsreport.com)
  • Pilot, then 69 years old, admitted that he didn't use his checklist.  On Final at about 20 ft above the runway threshold, a plane holding for take off announced on the frequency "gear not down".  He pulled the gear switch, claimed he added power, and raised the nose.  The plane slammed into the runway and broke the nose gear off (it may not have been fully extended), hit several runway signs - possibly he stalled it.
  • The plane was scrapped.  Parts can be found on Arizona Air Salvage. https://azairsalvage.com/product-tag/m20/
• In December 2022 he purchased N1172W and renumbered it N231VM. It is a 1982 M20K ser. no. 25-0716.   He crashed it on Monday.
  • https://www.aircraft.com/aircraft/192905111/n1172w-1982-mooney-m20k-231
  • N1172W (1982 MOONEY AIRCRAFT CORP. M20K owned by BOETTCHER RICHARD) Aircraft Registration - FlightAware
  • Incident Mooney M20K 231 N231VM, (flightsafety.org)
• In November 2021, after the crash of N231VM and before the purchase of N1172 (the new N231VM), he purchased N57241, a 1984 M20K ser. no. 25-0797.  There is no record of an accident, but it wound up scrapped at BAS with bent wings.  It is currently being sold in parts.
  • https://www.aircraft.com/aircraft/205957049/n57241-1984-mooney-m20k-231se
  • https://www.flightaware.com/resources/registration/N57241
  • Mooney M20K Fuselage with airworthiness, bill of sale, data tag and log books (baspartsales.com)

First M20K

Second M20K  at 3,440 hours  https://www.aircraft.com/aircraft/205957049/n57241-1984-mooney-m20k-231se

Same plane at 3,445 hours

 

Third M20K

Before N-number change.

 

After

 

 

 

 

Supposedly 57241 was destroyed in a windstorm.  So maybe that one wasn’t his fault. 

Edited June 26 by jrwilson

[Shadrach]

23 minutes ago, jrwilson said:

Supposedly 57241 was destroyed in a windstorm.  So maybe that one wasn’t his fault.  Source was the previous owner.

Makes one wonder if it was properly tied down.

 

[amillet]

I flew N231VM 17 times in 2001-2004 while it was owned by my friend.  Sad to see it destroyed 

[Yetti]

In Mountain Biking we had this saying OSB.....  Other Sports Beckon.

[toto]

OT: I always find it strange when Mooney owners aren’t on MooneySpace. Some of my favorite threads on here are the ones where the incident pilot is talking to the community about decisions made in the moment, and collecting advice/feedback on how to proceed. It’s often cathartic to commiserate with others who have made their own mistakes and have hard-earned wisdom on the matter. When an incident pilot isn’t here, we end up with rampant speculation, which is fine as far as it goes - but nowhere near as productive as having a candid conversation with someone who was there. 

Type club membership is generally associated with safer pilots, and it’s not just about proficiency programs - it’s also about having a sounding board for ideas and a place to sanity-check decisions. 

[Pinecone]

1)  Some owners may just not be aware of Mooney Space

2)  Some owners may just not into the whole cyber space/social media thing

I have been online since 1986, and found AVSIG on Compuserve about a week into being online.   The first thing I did when my search turned towards Mooney was to search for a Mooney online forum.  And I found Mooney Space

[natdm]

9 hours ago, toto said:

OT: I always find it strange when Mooney owners aren’t on MooneySpace. Some of my favorite threads on here are the ones where the incident pilot is talking to the community about decisions made in the moment, and collecting advice/feedback on how to proceed. It’s often cathartic to commiserate with others who have made their own mistakes and have hard-earned wisdom on the matter. When an incident pilot isn’t here, we end up with rampant speculation, which is fine as far as it goes - but nowhere near as productive as having a candid conversation with someone who was there. 

Type club membership is generally associated with safer pilots, and it’s not just about proficiency programs - it’s also about having a sounding board for ideas and a place to sanity-check decisions. 

There was a very long thread about my incident that I participated in, and it got deleted for some reason. Wonder how much that happens.

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

Some owners may just not be aware of Mooney Space

Just did a search for "mooney" on DuckDuckGo and Google thinking this site would be hard to miss.  I thought MooneySpace would be in the top three, but it's not even on the first page.  Seems like this site would generate a lot more traffic than MAPA or controller.com.  How many thousands of people per day are looking for a Mooney to buy?

[EricJ]

Mooneys are like flies around here, they're freaking everywhere.  I wouldn't want to even guess how many there are at DVT, but it's a fairly large number, and there's a ton more at the other airports around here.   A small percentage posts here, and when I ask people about it some are aware of mooneyspace, some have read it, but most don't participate, probably for the reasons pinecone mentions.   A lot of people just don't do forums, or only allocate a small amount of bandwidth to them and put priority on other stuff, like hiking or brewing or gardening or other important topics.   I think that's to be expected.

[RescueMunchkin]

On 6/26/2024 at 7:43 AM, 1980Mooney said:

Interesting comments that he made to FAA/NTSB in March 2020 NTSB CAROL Docket:

• He reported that "he wasn't himself" and "not thinking"
• "Things were happening too fast. I think I pulled back pressure on the yoke and with the plane in landing configuration, I think I stalleded the airplane and dropped the airplane onto the runway, The mains were fully deployed, however, I think that I put too much stress on the nose gear, and it broke off at the axle. The wheel went bouncing off the runway, which I saw. If it wasn't such a catastrophe, it would have been kind of funny."

Comments he made to press on Monday:

• "I tried to restart the engine and it wouldn't restart, tried to switch tanks ... "
• "I don't know if it's a miracle or just good piloting techniques," Boettcher said. "I don't know what but I did the right thing."
• "I feel like I want to go home and go to bed and forget about it all," he said with a slight laugh.

These crashes don't seem to phase him.  I bet he buys another M20K.....

Looking at the pilot/operator incident report for the gear up landing incident, I found what was stated in the Operator/Owner Safety Recommendation section to be very strange (in addition to the mis-spelling of his name in that paperwork)

"Fly with an instructor until I feel that I have the proficiency that I had before,  I missed into KTTD twice with the old ADF (MDA of 1040 feet) approach and elected to land into KPDX, 300 foor ceiling.  It worked great!"

This gear up incident was at Minden, NV, so the statements about missed approaches and landings with low ceilings in a different state makes him seem like something strange is going on with him, unless someone at the NTSB messed up with the paperwork organization.

Edited June 27 by RescueMunchkin

[Pinecone]

3 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Just did a search for "mooney" on DuckDuckGo and Google thinking this site would be hard to miss.  I thought MooneySpace would be in the top three, but it's not even on the first page.  Seems like this site would generate a lot more traffic than MAPA or controller.com.  How many thousands of people per day are looking for a Mooney to buy?

Just did it with Google.  Mooney Flyer was first two (actual site and FB page).  Mooney Space was 3rd.  Mooney Corp was 6th

 

[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

Just did it with Google.  Mooney Flyer was first two (actual site and FB page).  Mooney Space was 3rd.  Mooney Corp was 6th

 

We must be using different versions of Google.  I was on a laptop, and that could potentially generate different results than a phone.

[Pinecone]

I was on a desktop.

 

[PeteMc]

1 hour ago, Fly Boomer said:

We must be using different versions of Google. 

I'd actually expect Mooneyspace to come up as #1 or #2 on everyone's search that is already here.  You need to find a computer that hasn't been here or any other Mooney sites and see how the list comes up.

 

 

Edited June 27 by PeteMc

[Fly Boomer]

1 hour ago, Pinecone said:

I was on a desktop.

 

I'm out of ideas.