Signature is evil

[Fritz1]

MacDan Aviation in Caldwell NJ dinged rhe nose gear truss on my G model 25 years ago, I went to see the owner and he arranged for the repair, days long gone. Whenever I park the Bravo I try to do it in a way so nobody has to move it. If moving it is unavoidable I make the mover touch the nose truss and explain that moving the bird backward with a tug is plain dangerous in a left turn. Whenever I pick up the bird I check the nose truss. When I bought the bird 6 years ago, guess what I replaced the nose truss. So I am paranoid, keep fingers crossed!

[PT20J]

I am not in any way saying this is the OP's fault, but I think the lesson here is that if someone moves the plane the preflight should include careful examination of the nose gear leg and truss. And, no, I haven't always done that. When mine was tug-damaged (not by Signature), I happened to think it was parked in a space between hangars that would have required a lot of maneuvering and that's why I happened to check it and found one of the stops broken off. I was lucky because the tube was dented less than the 1/32" allowable and I was able to fly it home.

The nose wheel only steers 11 deg left and 13 deg right. Assuming a ten foot towbar, the tug will be offset from centerline only about 2 feet left and 2.3 feet right. I don't think the guy that broke mine even knew he did it. Before Mooney started welding the stops to the nose gear leg, the only stops were on the rudder push pull tube in the tail. The newer stops on the nose gear leg help, but are not really all that strong.

[toto]

For whatever it’s worth, any time my a/c is at a “foreign” FBO, I send them a copy of the Mooney service letter and ask them to be familiar with it before moving the aircraft. I always point out the red limit indicators on the nose gear. 

I’ve had good luck with this approach so far, and often hear the desk person emphasizing the turn radius concern to the line person.

 

Mooney-turn-radius-service-instruction.pdf

[jetdriven]

4 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

As someone who currently works for a startup company, we would not exist without private equity. Most biotech startups are funded by private equity. 

Not everything they do is pure evil. They are hoping for a good return on their money.

FWIW, I am a private equity investor. In most cases this money is invested with considerable risk.

Yes, they just make the most money by ripping people off. And they will do it without even a shred of decency or morals. It’s just about money. It’s like when they buy a private water systems for cities, and then they blow up the water system and then they make the city buyout their contract early for 1 millions of dollars and meanwhile, citizens have no clean water because the infrastructure has completely fallen apart. But that’s part of the business model, but at least they made some money while people have to suffer. it used to be illegal to do things like this. 

[jetdriven]

4 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

As someone who currently works for a startup company, we would not exist without private equity. Most biotech startups are funded by private equity. 

Not everything they do is pure evil. They are hoping for a good return on their money.

FWIW, I am a private equity investor. In most cases this money is invested with considerable risk.

Yes, they just make the most money by ripping people off. And they will do it without even a shred of decency or morals. It’s just about money. It’s like when they buy a private water systems for cities, and then they blow up the water system and then they make the city buyout their contract early for 1 millions of dollars and meanwhile, citizens have no clean water because the infrastructure has completely fallen apart. But that’s part of the business model, but at least they made some money while people have to suffer. it used to be illegal to do things like this. 

[NewMoon]

21 hours ago, PT20J said:

I'm curious what the repair cost?

When Atlantic screwed up mine and refused to pay or share the surveillance videos, I just let my insurance handle it. So, I was out nothing but a little time arranging parts and repairs. It was a small claim and not my fault so it didn't affect my rates. Ultimately USAIG was able to get reimbursed by the FBO. Problem for me was that I couldn't prove it. Now, I take pictures. 

Yep, happened to me 15 years ago. always take time and date stamped photos now. 

[N201MKTurbo]

17 minutes ago, jetdriven said:

Yes, they just make the most money by ripping people off. And they will do it without even a shred of decency or morals. It’s just about money. It’s like when they buy a private water systems for cities, and then they blow up the water system and then they make the city buyout their contract early for 1 millions of dollars and meanwhile, citizens have no clean water because the infrastructure has completely fallen apart. But that’s part of the business model, but at least they made some money while people have to suffer. it used to be illegal to do things like this. 

Now, don't paint everybody with the same brush. YES, there are money grubbing scumbags in that business, but they are not all that way. 

[Max Clark]

I've been told this same horror story twice now in the past month

DON'T LET ANYONE TOW WITH A TUG

Is now seared into my brain - was going to ask if this was an overreaction, but reading this thread I don't thinkn so

[jetdriven]

1 hour ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Now, don't paint everybody with the same brush. YES, there are money grubbing scumbags in that business, but they are not all that way. 

I had a Lawyer friend told me the same thing about Lawyers.    he said just because 98% of them are bad doesn’t mean the other 2 percent aren’t good

[MikeOH]

1 hour ago, Max Clark said:

I've been told this same horror story twice now in the past month

DON'T LET ANYONE TOW WITH A TUG

Is now seared into my brain - was going to ask if this was an overreaction, but reading this thread I don't thinkn so

My opinion is that our nose gear is very poorly designed.  Unfortunately, that means the onus is on us to take all precautions and warn any FBO as to the fragile nature of Mooney nose gear.  I also suspect FBOs' bad attitudes about damage is related to their feeling that they didn't handle a Mooney any differently than any other, so why is it their fault?

I try to park where my plane will NOT be moved by the FBO.  I go to the effort of asking if my plane can be left where it is without needing to be moved during my stay.  If they say no, I ask where I can more it so that it will NOT be moved. Failing that (only happened once) I give the lecture and warning about how easily damaged it is along with taking a picture.  Frankly, after hearing about this horror story of abject failure to take responsibility for negligence I'm going to ratchet up my procedure to include getting a photo of an FBO manager next to my undamaged gear when I arrive!

[Texas Mooney]

41 minutes ago, N201MKTurbo said:

Now, don't paint everybody with the same brush. YES, there are money grubbing scumbags in that business, but they are not all that way. 

I think the problem is that your experience is with a different form of "Private Equity".  You mentioned that you are in a "Start-up" venture.  Early start-up "ideas" are usually funded by "Angel Investors" and then as a business start-up by "Venture Capital" investors.  These "start-up" businesses have no revenue, no track record, no profit.  They are a "sink-hole" of negative cashflow.  There is no balance sheet or cashflow to borrow any funding from traditional sources like banks.  These early investors are taking huge risk on the technology, market, start-up team, etc.  There is a high failure/default rate on these start-ups  If it fails there is nothing left - no assets to liquidate.   They will take a complete loss.  And yes the source of their funding is "Private" equity.  But these investors really care about the business and its success.

But the "Private Equity" buying FBO's are the classic leveraged buy-out, roll-up consolidation and flip plays.  They are buying companies with revenue, cashflow, profits, solid balance sheets which can be used to borrow more funds.  Then they are consolidating and squeezing vendors, landlords, customers, everyone that they can squeeze to jack up short term profits - even to the detriment of the future business.  Why? - because they won't own it then - that will be the new buyers' problem.

To put it differently, which of the 3 PE buyers of FBO's are the "good guy" Private Equity and which are the "money grubbing scumbags" Private Equity?

• Signature Aviation/Blackstone - Global Infrastructure - Cascade ("make Bill Gates richer") Private Equity acquires: 
  • Vail Valley Jet Center 2021
  • 14 TAC Air FBO's 2022
  • 2 Meridian FBO's (Family owned, award winning - last independent FBO at Teterboro) 2024
• Atlantic Aviation/KKR acquires:
  • 19 Ross Aviation FBO's 2022
  • 9 Lynx FBO's 2022
  • 3 TAC Air FBO's 2022
  • Textar Aviation - Dallas Love FBO - includes 75,000 SF hangar, 12 acres aircraft apron 2022
  • Takes over the former Jet Aviation FBO at Dulles 2023
• Modern Aviation/Apollo acquires
  • Hill Aviation/Million Air San Juan FBO 2021
  • 5 Sheltair FBO's in NY 2022
  • 3 Superior Aviation FBO's in CA 2022
  • Eliott Aviation Des Moines FBO 2022
  • 3 Mystic Jet Center LLC FBO's 2023
  • Isle Grand Puerto Rico FBO 2024
  • American Aero FTW Mecham FBO 2024

[Rick Junkin]

On 5/27/2024 at 7:34 PM, OHAEDO said:

5 years later, I face them in court tomorrow.  They are risibly stating using a huge boom was not an issue and that it’s my fault.

 

@OHAEDO Any update on your day in court?

[Greg Ellis]

There was someone on Mooneyspace that showed a picture of them putting ketchup packets on their nose gear and if the ketchup package was broken, they knew that the airplane had been over steered with the tug.

[Paul Thomas]

10 hours ago, Rick Junkin said:

@OHAEDO Any update on your day in court?

Today is day 2; the case is being tried in Miami Dade in front of Judge Brinkley.

[Fritz1]

IMacDan Aviation in Caldwell NJ dinged rhe nose gear truss on my G model 25 years ago, I went to see the owner and he arranged for the repair, days long gone. Whenever I park the Bravo I try to do it in a way so nobody has to move it. If moving it is unavoidable I make the mover touch the nose truss and explain that moving the bird backward with a tug is plain dangerous in a left turn. Whenever I pick up the bird I check the nose truss. When I bought the bird 6 years ago, guess what I replaced the nose truss. So I am paranoid, keep fingers crossed!

[Fritz1]

I keep fingers crossed, glad somebody is standing up to those ruffians!

[bcg]

Today is day 2; the case is being tried in Miami Dade in front of Judge Brinkley.

It always amazes me when insurance companies and/or businesses fight something like this. Seems like it would be cheaper to just do the right thing in the beginning.

My wife used to work for PI attorneys, they had a case where a guy originally wanted $35k to repair his car and pay for his medical bills after an ATM exploded while he was using it in a drive through. Yes, literally exploded, obviously not his fault. Insurance made him sue them and at the end of the day paid out a several million dollar judgement because they wouldn't do the right thing at the start.

I hope you prevail and it's enough to make them have second thoughts about doing the same to someone else in the future.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk

[LANCECASPER]

1 hour ago, bcg said:

It always amazes me when insurance companies and/or businesses fight something like this. Seems like it would be cheaper to just do the right thing in the beginning.

My wife used to work for PI attorneys, they had a case where a guy originally wanted $35k to repair his car and pay for his medical bills after an ATM exploded while he was using it in a drive through. Yes, literally exploded, obviously not his fault. Insurance made him sue them and at the end of the day paid out a several million dollar judgement because they wouldn't do the right thing at the start.

I hope you prevail and it's enough to make them have second thoughts about doing the same to someone else in the future.

Sent from my Pixel 6a using Tapatalk


 

I agree. People complain about personal injury attorneys and other attorneys, and they deserve some of that reputation, but not all of it.

Companies who won’t do what is right created a huge market for them.

[bcg]

8 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

I agree. People complain about personal injury attorneys and other attorneys, and they deserve some of that reputation, but not all of it.

Companies who won’t do what is right created a huge market for them.

My personal feeling is that the insurance companies are the real evil in the system.  Before they got involved, 2 reasonable people could work out a reasonable solution.  Since they've become so embedded in everything we interact with, attorneys have become a necessity.  Without them, insurance companies would probably never pay a claim, no matter how valid.  Having spent a lot of time with Plaintiff's attorneys, I think of them more like the police protecting us from being walked all over by insurance companies and huge corporations with deep pockets that would be able to just outspend the victim if there weren't attorneys working on contingency.  They're not all good, and certainly not doing what they do out of altruism but, on the whole I think they do more right than wrong.

The worst part of all of is that we still end up paying for the insurance company's bad acts in higher premiums, either directly or indirectly through higher costs of goods and services so those providers can pay their higher premiums.  It's really no lose for them.

[midlifeflyer]

18 hours ago, bcg said:

My personal feeling is that the insurance companies are the real evil in the system.

I had a jury trial once where  I was defending this old guy against a lawsuit arising out of a  20-year old business transaction.  As it happened, the plaintiff was a guy who went to law school, became a member of the bar, but never practiced.  Instead, he went into the insurance biz. 

The main theme of my defense came down to, there's nothing worse than a lawyer except an insurance salesman and this guy's both!

Yeah we won. So much so that, when I left the courthouse and looked up when I heard a horn honking, it was one of the jurors in an older Buick giving me a thumbs-up.

[AndreiC]

Back to the topic of front gear management. Is it possible for me to damage it while pushing the plane with just my weight and a towbar? 1970 M20E.

[Skates97]

On 5/28/2024 at 7:20 AM, PT20J said:

Probably it depends on the FBO. If I were a large FBO, my fear would be that someone with a damaged gear would fly to my location and then claim I caused the damage figuring I had deep pockets. With a date/time stamped photo, I can show that it was good when I arrived. Now, if they are just jerks and say, “so sue me”, then it wouldn’t help.

At our dealerships we have 4K cameras on the service drives covering all angles and the service advisors do a walk around video of the vehicle when it arrives. We still have people that claim that scratch/dent in the side of their vehicle "wasn't there" when they arrived. the cameras have more than paid for themselves in the false claims. Then they have also shown when it was our fault and we pony up for the repairs.

[PT20J]

When I was talking over my nose gear claim with my insurance adjuster he related to me that they hate writing FBO insurance because they all have young low paid guys driving tugs and fuel trucks around expensive airplanes. He was currently working a claim by an FBO for a kid that ran a fuel truck with a mid-stowed ladder sticking out the side into an engine cowling and along the fuselage of a BBJ (corporate 737). The damage was 7 figures requiring Boeing engineers to fix it. 

I once worked at a flight school where the new line boy tried to taxi an Archer to the wash rack and hit another airplane, panicked and steered into the tail of a Navajo where the prop made 3 slices through the tail before stopping. 

FBOs are dangerous places for airplanes. 

[PT20J]

23 minutes ago, AndreiC said:

Back to the topic of front gear management. Is it possible for me to damage it while pushing the plane with just my weight and a towbar? 1970 M20E.

Only if you use a very long tow bar. 

[LANCECASPER]

In 2000 shortly after buying a new Piper Mirage, the FBO where I kept in in San Antonio damaged the nose gear. If I remember correctly back then the FBO was called SunJet, then shortly after that Landmark North and now Signature North. The insurance company that the FBO had was the same insurance company that I had at the time. The FBO did not want to make a claim and I didn't either. If I remember correctly since it would be all new parts, the damage was just short of $10,000. My solution was for them not to make a claim but to pay for it out of pocket. Since they hangared me I know I didn't do it. They said it could have happened at a destination FBO. I explained that I check it during pre-flight every time. We went back and forth.

The insurance company employee-adjuster (not an independent adjuster)  flew down from Dallas in his Cessna 182 and he, the FBO General Manager and I sat around the conference table there at the FBO. The adjuster said that a claim for the FBO most likely would raise their very high six figure rates higher and he could assure me that this type of claim for me (not-in-motion, plus I had never had a claim) would not raise my rates at all.

Going on principle I wanted the FBO to pay for it since they damaged it. I based there and the FBO hangared the airplane and brought it out when I called. (That airplane has a 42' wingspan and doesn't fit in a t-hangar). I was afraid it would happen again since they were handling the airplane. The GM assured me that they would assign one of their senior people to it and it would be on the ramp until they had someone with experience to do it. We finally made a gentleman's agreement that if I made the claim, they would agree to make a claim on their policy or pay for it out of pocket if it ever happened again and they would cut me a deal on the monthly hangar fee and the best fuel price allowed.

I think the GM was caught in the middle since a claim may have resulted in a non-renewal and an out of pocket expense may have put his job in jeopardy. In the end none of us were completely satisfied but we all felt it was fair. I probably came out the best since my insurance rates didn't go up and I saved a couple hundred per month on what I was paying for the hangar and my fuel price went down by almost a dollar a gallon. Things happen and the only reason we were able to come to an agreement is that neither of us was unreasonable and we were able to arrive at a solution. The insurance adjuster helped keep things calm also.