Mooney flying

[Guest]

I am totally new to flying Mooney’s. I’ve got about 10 hours in my j model now. A couple of thoughts that I would like to get input on are:

1) it seems when landing hard to keep the rpms out of the cautionary range “avoid 1550-1950 with power less than 15” manifold pressure.” —seems unavoidable for landing. 
 

2)compared to other airplanes I’ve flown, it tracks nicely down the runway even in a crosswind. However, on rotation and initial climb, I am surprised how much right rudder is required. Is this normal?

[1980Mooney]

22 minutes ago, Kerrville said:

I am totally new to flying Mooney’s. I’ve got about 10 hours in my j model now. A couple of thoughts that I would like to get input on are:

1) it seems when landing hard to keep the rpms out of the cautionary range “avoid 1550-1950 with power less than 15” manifold pressure.” —seems unavoidable for landing. 
 

2)compared to other airplanes I’ve flown, it tracks nicely down the runway even in a crosswind. However, on rotation and initial climb, I am surprised how much right rudder is required. Is this normal?

Great questions.   The RPM restriction has been discussed many times.  The consensus is "the main concern is not for short term usage but for continuous operation in the limited range" - meaning in a cruise.   And "there is no way I can fly an approach without being in the limited zone. I have always taken this restriction to mean not to fly a long flight sitting in the restricted zone."

 

 

[0TreeLemur]

1)  With prop full forward, you can keep rpm above 1950 with m.p. down at about 14-15" .  That power setting is pretty good for 80 knot pattern speed after the perch with gear down and flaps as needed.   Then you just slow to 70 over the fence.  It doesn't vibrate so much doing it that way.

2) A decent amount of right rudder is absolutely necessary when climbing.  That's normal.

[1980Mooney]

27 minutes ago, Kerrville said:

I am totally new to flying Mooney’s. I’ve got about 10 hours in my j model now. A couple of thoughts that I would like to get input on are:

....2)compared to other airplanes I’ve flown, it tracks nicely down the runway even in a crosswind. However, on rotation and initial climb, I am surprised how much right rudder is required. Is this normal?

Regarding rudder - does your plane fly straight and level when in cruise with power settings and speed stabilized? - meaning hands off with minimal adjustment?  If so it is properly rigged.  The torque steer on full power (and rudder to counteract) is normal.

[Guest]

I think it may be a bit out of rig. It seems to be a bit left wing heavy in cruise, which would also add to right rudder. I’m not sure how big of a deal it is to re-rig, but it is something I am considering for the annual. 

[802flyer]

Needing to add a fair amount of rudder at the time of rotation was also something that I had to get used to when I got my F last summer. It’s normal.

My RPM restricted region is a different range, but I agree with the above comment in that I try to use flaps and gear to generate enough drag so that I can keep enough power in to avoid it, then drop below it on final. But I don’t worry about it if I end up sitting there for a short segment of the second half of the traffic pattern or an approach because that’s not a significant amount of continuous operation.


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[Fly Boomer]

2 minutes ago, Kerrville said:

I’m not sure how big of a deal it is to re-rig, but it is something I am considering for the annual. 

Kind of a big deal -- you probably need a Mooney expert to do it.

[SKI]

Regarding the left wing heavy situation are you flying solo? How's your fuel load balanced? I've never flown a Mooney but on my Cherokee both of those seem to matter. Flying solo you have all your weight left of centerline and nothing to counter act it on the right. Add to that you may have more fuel in the left tank vs the right tank. Fuel makes a bigger difference since it's further outboard of the centerline. Like my A&P buddy always says "Never go straight for the jugular" Meaning try simple, easy, logical things first before you go with a more invasive and extreme approach. Just throwing out something to think about before going through the hassle of messing with the rigging.

[Andy95W]

Flying solo or burning one wing tank down should not affect flight characteristics in a noticeable fashion.  If one wing is “heavy”, it is aerodynamic due to mis-rigging.

(Note: this may be different for long range tanks.)

[Mooneymite]

25 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Flying solo or burning one wing tank down should not affect flight characteristics in a noticeable fashion.  If one wing is “heavy”, it is aerodynamic due to mis-rigging.

Unless you're flying a Mooney Mite where you can turn the plane by sticking your arm out one side......

[AndreiC]

On 12/6/2023 at 4:28 PM, Andy95W said:

Flying solo or burning one wing tank down should not affect flight characteristics in a noticeable fashion.  If one wing is “heavy”, it is aerodynamic due to mis-rigging.

(Note: this may be different for long range tanks.)

My old Cherokee was definitely left wing heavy with both tanks full and me in left seat. You needed to burn about 15 gals from left tank to get it to be even balanced. But I think this is correct on every plane pretty much. I was taught this is why we always start with the fuel selector on left tank when flying solo. 

[Andy95W]

Don’t know about no Cherokee.

Both Mooneys I’ve owned flew straight regardless of passengers or unbalanced fuel.  Didn’t matter.

[Ned Gravel]

9 minutes ago, Andy95W said:

Don’t know about no Cherokee.

Both Mooneys I’ve owned flew straight regardless of passengers or unbalanced fuel.  Didn’t matter.

+1.
Owned mine for nearly 20 years and it doesn’t get unbalanced at all - left or right.   

[RoundTwo]

On 12/7/2023 at 6:55 PM, Andrei Caldararu said:

My old Cherokee was definitely left wing heavy with both tanks full and me in left seat. You needed to burn about 15 gals from left tank to get it to be even balanced. But I think this is correct on every plane pretty much. I was taught this is why we always start with the fuel selector on left tank when flying solo. 

The Cherokee seems more sensitive to fuel imbalance because the tanks are further from the centerline. Our Mooney tanks start right next to the cabin and therefore have a shorter lever arm.

[Ragsf15e]

On 12/6/2023 at 1:35 PM, Kerrville said:

I think it may be a bit out of rig. It seems to be a bit left wing heavy in cruise, which would also add to right rudder. I’m not sure how big of a deal it is to re-rig, but it is something I am considering for the annual. 

After getting to a safe altitude, most people transition to a cruise climb for better cooling and visibility.  Around 115-120mph. Less rudder will be required than at initial takeoff/climb.

You will find the caution range unavoidable for some parts of instrument approaches and vfr patterns.  I just try to minimize it when possible.

Edited December 9, 2023 by Ragsf15e

[Joshua Blackh4t]

As for being out of rig, its a simple procedure to modify the aileron trim.

The poh says to bend the trailing edge of the aileron, but I ended up adding a trim tab. After a few trial settings, it got it flying nicely.

Also check the ailerons haven't already been bent and are causing the problem.

[PT20J]

On 12/6/2023 at 9:33 AM, Kerrville said:

I am totally new to flying Mooney’s. I’ve got about 10 hours in my j model now. A couple of thoughts that I would like to get input on are:

1) it seems when landing hard to keep the rpms out of the cautionary range “avoid 1550-1950 with power less than 15” manifold pressure.” —seems unavoidable for landing. 
 

2)compared to other airplanes I’ve flown, it tracks nicely down the runway even in a crosswind. However, on rotation and initial climb, I am surprised how much right rudder is required. Is this normal?

1) I don't like the vibration in the yellow arc so I try to avoid it. I usually fly downwind at 20" MAP with the gear down midfield. Abeam the numbers I reduce the throttle until the rpm is at the top of the yellow arc and when the airplane slows to the white arc I put down full flaps and set high rpm. I maintain traffic pattern altitude until the airplane has  slowed to 75 KIAS and then adjust throttle if necessary to have the rpm at the bottom of the yellow arc and begin descent. At this point it's about time to turn base. I usually don't have to adjust power until final and then only small changes are necessary. On short final I slow to 65 KIAS for my normal landing weight of around 2400- 2500 lbs.

2) Normal takeoffs for me are 15 deg flaps with about 7 deg pitch up at rotation, gear up at positive rate and accelerating through 80 KIAS I raise the flaps. I maintain 7 deg pitch and the airplane continues to accelerate in the climb and it takes less rudder as the speed increases.

These are just my techniques -- there are many ways to accomplish the same result.

[Wingover]

On 12/10/2023 at 1:37 AM, PT20J said:

1) I don't like the vibration in the yellow arc so I try to avoid it. I usually fly downwind at 20" MAP with the gear down midfield. Abeam the numbers I reduce the throttle until the rpm is at the top of the yellow arc and when the airplane slows to the white arc I put down full flaps and set high rpm. I maintain traffic pattern altitude until the airplane has  slowed to 75 KIAS and then adjust throttle if necessary to have the rpm at the bottom of the yellow arc and begin descent. At this point it's about time to turn base. I usually don't have to adjust power until final and then only small changes are necessary. On short final I slow to 65 KIAS for my normal landing weight of around 2400- 2500 lbs.

2) Normal takeoffs for me are 15 deg flaps with about 7 deg pitch up at rotation, gear up at positive rate and accelerating through 80 KIAS I raise the flaps. I maintain 7 deg pitch and the airplane continues to accelerate in the climb and it takes less rudder as the speed increases.

These are just my techniques -- there are many ways to accomplish the same result.

I know this is an old thread but I noticed my 1987 M20J 205 doesn't have the yellow range. I just have green between 1800-2700 RPM.  Does this mean my engine is safe to operate between the 1500-1950 rpm?  Lycoming 10-360-A3B6D

[KSMooniac]

1 minute ago, Wingover said:

I know this is an old thread but I noticed my 1987 M20J 205 doesn't have the yellow range. I just have green between 1800-2700 RPM.  Does this mean my engine is safe to operate between the 1500-1950 rpm?  Lycoming 10-360-A3B6D

Which prop do you have?  MT by chance?  If so, the MT does not have a yellow arc like the original 2-blade McCaulley.

[Wingover]

14 minutes ago, KSMooniac said:

Which prop do you have?  MT by chance?  If so, the MT does not have a yellow arc like the original 2-blade McCaulley.

I have the 2 blade McCaulley prop

[EricJ]

28 minutes ago, Wingover said:

I have the 2 blade McCaulley prop

Look in the limitations section of your POH and in the TCDS to see how the tach should be marked for your specific propeller.   It could be the tach was replaced at some point and wasn't properly marked, or if you have a prop that doesn't require it.    Most McCauleys do require a yellow range, so it may be worth checking.   If your prop was installed with an STC or field approval or something like that, then that paperwork should show any limitations.

 

 

[PT20J]

46 minutes ago, Wingover said:

I know this is an old thread but I noticed my 1987 M20J 205 doesn't have the yellow range. I just have green between 1800-2700 RPM.  Does this mean my engine is safe to operate between the 1500-1950 rpm?  Lycoming 10-360-A3B6D

If it is the 2 blade McCauley originally installed, there should be a limitation per the TCDS. Perhaps the airspeed indicator was replaced and marked incorrectly. There should also be placard adjacent to the tach that reads AVOID CONT. OPERATION BETWEEN 1500 & 1950 RPM W/POWER SETTINGS BELLOW 15" Hg. MANIFOLD PRESSURE.

 

[Wingover]

4 minutes ago, PT20J said:

If it is the 2 blade McCauley originally installed, there should be a limitation per the TCDS. Perhaps the airspeed indicator was replaced and marked incorrectly. There should also be placard adjacent to the tach that reads AVOID CONT. OPERATION BETWEEN 1500 & 1950 RPM W/POWER SETTINGS BELLOW 15" Hg. MANIFOLD PRESSURE.

 

Prop was rebuilt and installed less than 30 hours ago.  I will check the paperwork and POH