Considering Leaving General Aviation

[Pinecone]

About 2 years ago, I got bids on redoing my second bath room.  The CHEAPEST quote was about double what I paid to do the master bath about 3 years before that.  And they went up to about 2.5x.

And I felt that I overpaid for the first project as it came in about 50% over the quote.

[A64Pilot]

I still can’t figure out how many can afford to not work, are there that many more Government programs now?

I know how some do it by gaming the system, but has the number of gamers increase that much?

[Jsno]

On 12/1/2022 at 2:19 PM, redbaron1982 said:

I totally understand the OP feeling. I have owned a Mooney M20J for 1 year now and haven't got to fly it yet, annual of hell, Mooney taking 6 months to produce a spare part, MSC that are a complete ripoff, etc. The GA ecosystem seems broken. I'm not saying that everything is bad, but there is a lot of things that are messed up.

Some I think are fixable, many others no, unless the industry really turns around, what I don't think is going to happen.

I sometimes think that we should come up with a system that could help us stay as "safe" (not only physically but financially as well) as possible. What are your thoughts in having a crowd source system for:

• Reviewing/evaluating GA shops and part sellers.
• Having helpful resources in a organized/centralized way for pre buy inspections, general maintenance, etc.

Many times I think of starting myself something like that, just for the fun of it, but I don't know if it would gain traction.

Also, something I would really like is to be able to be able to get certified as a AP+IA. Being able to maintain our airplanes would be a huge benefit for saving money and time, not always, but in a lot of cases.

If you are waiting a year for a part, have you scrounged all of rte salvage yard sites.  There are parts out there that are serviceable.  

[Fly Boomer]

12 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

I still can’t figure out how many can afford to not work, are there that many more Government programs now?

I know how some do it by gaming the system, but has the number of gamers increase that much?

Parents, credit cards, couch surfing, shrinking hopes/wants/needs/desires?  With unemployment sitting at 3.xx % and 265,000 new jobs added last month, there aren't that many sitting on the sidelines.

[Jsno]

I am on my third aircraft project.  It is a M20F.  My last one was a Skyhawk that took 7 years.  Completely reworked everything on it because I am a perfectionist.  Back to my Mooney;  I bought it out of an estate for a low price rather than an RV because it is fast enough and can haul more than an RV.  It of course has turned out to be more than I thought because the camshaft had corroded and galled sending lots of metal through the oil system.  That was from sitting for 3 years before the sale.  Lesson learned about a sitting Lycoming.  I am an A&P and overhauling, (disassembly and assembly), myself and taking my time.  Over the years I have met many interesting people that I would not otherwise if I just went to the airport, flew, and went home.   I help them, even giving people spare parts and labor, and they reciprocate.  So it's not just the flying, it is also the community at the smaller airports and that is the point of owning a Mooney that you have missed.  I don't know where you are located but find a good mechanic that is familiar with Mooneys, or a better shop.  Parts can be found on the internet, EBAY, BASS, Dawson Aircraft Salvage, Texas Air Salvage and Loewen's.  Eventually you will have all of the major bugs worked  out and then you will get the rewards of owning a Mooney.  

[redbaron1982]

3 hours ago, Jsno said:

If you are waiting a year for a part, have you scrounged all of rte salvage yard sites.  There are parts out there that are serviceable.  

I'm following the advice of the best Mooney shop in the US. 

[hubcap]

There is no question that the last couple of years have been pretty tough in a lot of areas. Scoundrels are always seem to show up here and there but I will say that I have had many good experiences with folks helping me out and providing great customer service as well. 

Customer service in every industry seems to have been the first casualty of the Covid pandemic. We certainly experienced a few disappointments, but we also saw a bunch of great folks doing the best they could while dealing with very poor circumstances and pi$$y customers.

I am going to assume that these things will "normalize" at some point in the near future. The supply chain seems to be filling up nicely.

 

[sleeper-319]

Reading posts like this makes me feel like I’ve Forrest Gump’d my way through GA so far. My experience has been awesome. Great IAs on the field, I have a great A&P who encourages me to owner assist, I bought my mooney from an owner who cared for her in the same way FlyWalt describes, and ATC. Even the ATC, FSDO, and registration branch people I talked with were super nice nice and friendly. Any time I’ve needed help or knowledge, an assortment of people from my local club, the local EAA chapter, and here on Mooneyspace (and VansAF) have been an absolutely amazing and supportive community. Flip side… I’m only 18 months into ownership, so maybe there hasn’t been enough time for the shine to wear off.

[Ragsf15e]

On 12/3/2022 at 6:09 AM, Evan said:

Been flying for over 12 years. Just wrapping up my first year of aircraft ownership. I, like many new owners, haven't flown my plane much this year. One thing after another having to be fixed/looked at. There have been several times where I thought I've made a grave mistake of owning vs. renting. However, when the plane works and my wife and I can just jump in and go, owning is worth it and puts a huge smile on my face. 

I'd venture to say that most owners go through a rough year or two when owning a new airplane, especially being a first time owner. I'm looking forward to the day when my plane is in mx. only a couple of weeks a year vs. several months a year. 

Hang in there. It gets better when you get all the bugs worked out.

[A64Pilot]

6 hours ago, Fly Boomer said:

Parents, credit cards, couch surfing, shrinking hopes/wants/needs/desires?  With unemployment sitting at 3.xx % and 265,000 new jobs added last month, there aren't that many sitting on the sidelines.

Apparently people that have been unemployed for some time interval drop off the numbers and don’t count, there are other groups that don’t count to, so it leaves one wondering how many there really are if you add in the don’t counts.

They are “out of the labor force” so how many are out? The number may surprise you. See below chart . That was 2016, I wonder what 2022 looks like?

Like how inflation is calculated, food and energy don’t count. Wonder what it would be if everything I paid for counted? Not that food and energy are a significant part of average persons budget

[FlyingDude]

On 12/1/2022 at 12:59 PM, A64Pilot said:

he tested variable timing in his RV and being an NTPS guy it was very meticulous testing, his conclusion was there was little to be gained,

With surefly, I gained ~5kts TAS and save 5-7% on fuel at same engine settings, same altitude, same or similar pressure setting and oat, and same weight..

I did in-cruise mag check and on right mag, it does lose power and EGTs rise. On surefly, almost no power loss and very little rise in EGT. 

When left magneto required overhaul because bearing was shot and I opted for surefly, I justified it to wife saying that it would pay for itself. She rolled her eyes and said "if you believe that".

BUT I won't go dual-surefly even if it becomes available and am considering a second alternator where the vacuum pump used to be. 

However I am also bitter about faa stagnation. Like, why don't we have Li-ion batteries already???

[A64Pilot]

We don’t have Li-ion because simply put they are unsafe, and the cost to make them safe is excessive.

However I think you mean LIFE-Po4 and I’m pretty sure we have that, if your willing to pay, I’m not, not yet, price is too high for me.

If you got those numbers from electronic ignition, then your mags were off timing or another problem

[FlyingDude]

3 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

you got those numbers from electronic ignition, then your mags were off timing or another problem

Nope. Verified with AP...

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, sleeper-319 said:

Reading posts like this makes me feel like I’ve Forrest Gump’d my way through GA so far. My experience has been awesome. Great IAs on the field, I have a great A&P who encourages me to owner assist, I bought my mooney from an owner who cared for her in the same way FlyWalt describes, and ATC. Even the ATC, FSDO, and registration branch people I talked with were super nice nice and friendly. Any time I’ve needed help or knowledge, an assortment of people from my local club, the local EAA chapter, and here on Mooneyspace (and VansAF) have been an absolutely amazing and supportive community. Flip side… I’m only 18 months into ownership, so maybe there hasn’t been enough time for the shine to wear off.

You're on a roll, so keep riding the wave! 

[jaylw314]

2 hours ago, sleeper-319 said:

Reading posts like this makes me feel like I’ve Forrest Gump’d my way through GA so far. My experience has been awesome. Great IAs on the field, I have a great A&P who encourages me to owner assist, I bought my mooney from an owner who cared for her in the same way FlyWalt describes, and ATC. Even the ATC, FSDO, and registration branch people I talked with were super nice nice and friendly. Any time I’ve needed help or knowledge, an assortment of people from my local club, the local EAA chapter, and here on Mooneyspace (and VansAF) have been an absolutely amazing and supportive community. Flip side… I’m only 18 months into ownership, so maybe there hasn’t been enough time for the shine to wear off.

Remember the 80/20 rule.  80% of complaints come from 20% of people, so based on this thread I might argue that there must be a lot of more people out there doing okay with ownership  

[Jsno]

5 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

I'm following the advice of the best Mooney shop in the US. 

Then I will say no more...

[Schllc]

5 hours ago, redbaron1982 said:

I'm following the advice of the best Mooney shop in the US. 

Can’t wait to figure out which shop that would be!?

[T. Peterson]

On 12/3/2022 at 4:22 AM, Schllc said:

The state of our genre is tenuous at best, manufactures can’t get sales to a meaningful number.  Is it the cost or is it the interest?

The FAA is almost the enemy of GA. Maybe not it’s not intentionally, but by design, they frustrate innovation so thoroughly, that by the time it’s “certified” its 10 years old. 
Where else does this occur?  I mean there is nothing, not even pharmaceuticals that is this obtuse and onerous, and that has far worse consequences.

As far as meaningful data for experimental vs certified…. 
I don’t see how useful data can be collected to be anymore specific than the aggregate. 
Certified will likely always be safer, just by the nature of the barriers to entry. 
This doesn’t mean a diligent, conscientious, competent and thorough person can’t build an experimental as safe as a certified aircraft. The can, and they do. 
Man’s natural state however will dictate that is the exception, not the rule. 
I think the best idea I’ve heard in a while was the suggestion to allow us to decertify our planes, even if you take the hit on value..

I know I can do most of what the average AP can do, and better than many of them as well.  Especially if it was on the plane I planned to fly!  But I am not legally allowed to, so I pay and then I check for myself after. I’ve found oil rags left in the cowling, spark plugs not tight, leaking injector lines…. 
Humans are fallible, it’s just natural law. 

It’s overdue for a serious revision/rewrite to part 91, and the rewrite to part 23 that was supposed expedite innovation needs to be given real latitude. 
The reality is that once a government agency gets its grip on anything, they eternally feel that the only way to justify their existence is to become more controlling. 
They have no competition , no oversight and no consequences for bad decisions. 
Look at the premise of the lawsuit the FAA brought against warbird adventures.  The potential Impact it has on Experimental and LSA is huge.  And all to punish something they don’t want, which people flying vintage planes. Who gave them the right to bring a suit against us?
Bureaucrats should never have this kind of power. 

Outstanding!! Very well said!

[Schllc]

22 minutes ago, 1980Mooney said:

It’s probably in Texas…..

Oh yes, I agree. The factory service center was the best experience I’ve ever had in aviation. I will be bringing mine there for annual when due!

[FlyingDude]

4 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

don’t have Li-ion because simply put they are unsafe, and the cost to make them safe is excessiv

Actually we do. My G5s both have Li-ion backup batteries. I've found big ones certified for bigger aircraft. Anyway, I guess I brought up the wrong example.

I undersign a lot of the comments here. From undue and unruly government overreach to experimentals that can be technological forefronts or potentially wandering mines.

My personal message to the OP is that, you stay in GA if you're addicted to flying. Airlines are comfier, bullet trains (unfortunately not available in US) are way more comfier, reliable, faster; driving is always an option; no $100 hamburger tastes better. We fly because we want to.

The ripoffs young experienced, they exist among car dealers, mechanics, residential contractors, even doctors or universities... Hopefully you weed out the bad and hang on to the good ones. 

[Pinecone]

14 minutes ago, FlyingDude said:

bullet trains (unfortunately not available in US) are way more comfier, reliable, faster; 

We do.  But limited areas.  

Acela from DC to NYC is faster than several Japanese lines.  Heck, normal Amtrak on that corridor do 125 MPH.

[A64Pilot]

Yes, we have small lithium batteries in the Ipads we fly with and our cell phones. My assumption is someone did a risk analysis and came up with a size limit that’s considered acceptable, or perhaps the G5 battery is armored. I believe that was what was eventually done with the Dreamliner battery, it was put in a vault that by the time it was done the whole assembly weighed as much as a Ni-Cad battery of the same capacity or more.

https://www.ainonline.com/aviation-news/air-transport/2013-06-13/787-battery-modification-kit-hits-performance-weight

https://www.fire.tc.faa.gov/pdf/systems/May12Meeting/Webster-0512-Lithium_Metal_Cell_Container.pdf

I thought you meant starting batteries, Electric automobiles show it’s possible, but if you determine that you have to protect against a possible fire, you end up with no weight savings.

Gas cars are 11 times more likely to catch fire than a Tesla, and way more likely for it to be a sudden inferno, but the Tesla after several minutes will most likely brew up into one heck of a very difficult fireworks looking inferno.

However a plain old fashioned lead acid battery has a very low probability of catching fire.

A Lithium chemistry known as Lithium Iron or LIFE-Po4 is pretty much as safe as lead acid, not as high an energy density as most chemistries of Li-ion but still much better than lead acid.

There are dozens of different chemistries of Lithium batteries and all behave differently, you can’t group them all into one.

I believe Li-ion means it’s in a metal container, “pouch” cells are the same battery but in a plastic pouch and called Li-po. 

[FlyingDude]

5 minutes ago, Pinecone said:

We do.  But limited areas.  

Acela from DC to NYC is faster than several Japanese lines.  Heck, normal Amtrak on that corridor do 125 MPH.

Great to hear that. But what percentage of the population is covered? I wish we had more. I took the Chicago Detroit train once... Felt like getting off and pushing the train...

[FlyingDude]

6 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Yes, we have small lithium batteries in the Ipads we fly with and our cell phones. My assumption is someone did a risk analysis and came up with a size limit that’s considered acceptable, 

https://www.truebluepowerusa.com/getstarted/

These guys make Li-ion batteries that start turbines in certified aircraft. So your assumptions were wrong. As for me, just because I didn't see it on aircraft spruce, I shouldn't have assumed that it's not available for GA (certified) aircraft. Because it is. Just not for our turbo bug smashers...

[Pinecone]

9 hours ago, FlyingDude said:

Great to hear that. But what percentage of the population is covered? I wish we had more. I took the Chicago Detroit train once... Felt like getting off and pushing the train...

VERY low percentage of population is covered by trains at all.  And only VERY limited high speed ones.  Once you pass NYC north or DC south, no more high speed trains.

I have traveled around Japan, and several other countries, by train.  And coupled with good in city transport, no car needed.