Electroair's dual mag EIS approved

[A64Pilot]

1 hour ago, GeeBee said:

PMA, permanent magnet alternator. I agree it is better than the battery thing. Pratt and Whitney uses it for FADEC power on their engines. Engine turns, the FADEC has power. I too believe that electronic "mags" should be PMA powered.

 

The AH-64 motor which is also the UH-60 motor has a three pole PMG, one runs ignition, the second the NG gauge, the third Engine electronics, it’s not quite FADEC, or wasn’t 20 years ago when I retired. The thing is smaller than my fist, and bullet proof, never saw a failure. Airframe power was the backup for the engine electronics and we tested it with pretty much a simple A/B toggle switch before every flight.

We make things hard I believe sometimes because we can. For instance my mag switches on my 140 are simply two toggle switches, and no AD of course. So all we would really need on a Mooney is two toggle switches and an automotive keyed starter switch, or do it like an Ag plane and have a starter button.

[mhrivnak]

4 hours ago, alextstone said:

Wow, that's a lot of hardware to install and a lot of failure points

 

As I understand it, an Electroair mag has basically the same components as a SureFly alternative, except SureFly packs them all into one housing that goes where the old magneto was. Electroair puts the impulse couplings on their own (can be replaced independently if ever needed) and the electronics aft of the firewall, out of the heat. The moving parts attached to the hot engine are real simple. The wiring between components becomes a failure point, but you still have two independent systems with independent wiring.

IMO even if SureFly made an all-in-one EIS replacement for the bendix dual mag, I think the separation of components that Electroair has done makes sense and is an improvement.

[Guest]

Look how cheap electronic ignition is for the home built aircraft market.

https://lightspeed-aero.com/Products/OnlineOrder.htm#bkmk1

Clarence

[NotarPilot]

I’m glad this didn’t come out a year earlier, when my engine took a dump which necessitated an overhaul exchange, as I probably would have opted for this on the new engine as I had been waiting a few years for this to make it to the certified market. But after my new engine was installed I spoke with the shop owner at Advanced Aircraft Services who said he wouldn’t recommend the electronic ignition system as he too heard about complaints with the system. Sounds like the technology still needs some time to mature. I’m going to stick with my dual mag for now.

[A64Pilot]

12 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Look how cheap electronic ignition is for the home built aircraft market.

https://lightspeed-aero.com/Products/OnlineOrder.htm#bkmk1

Clarence

Now we see one reason why Experimental is becoming the GA airplane of the future, add in that there are now “manufacturers” of these aircraft, by that I mean people whom you hire to build your airplane, or people who build with the intent to sell. I’d bet few RV-10’s are flown by their builders or Lancair IVP’s 

[alextstone]

15 hours ago, M20Doc said:

Look how cheap electronic ignition is for the home built aircraft market.

https://lightspeed-aero.com/Products/OnlineOrder.htm#bkmk1

Clarence

It's moments like this  that I regret not buying that Lancair Legacy I had my eye on before I bought the Bravo.  

[jetdriven]

The “cut the wire off and shove a spring in it” reminds me of the Autozone universal for spark plug wire sets.  In 150 hours the rubber washers melt in the plug caps too. Turning the plug wire cap nit twists the wires apart.  The rest of the system is good. But the plug wire termination is straight up ghetto.  

[jetdriven]

13 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Now we see one reason why Experimental is becoming the GA airplane of the future, add in that there are now “manufacturers” of these aircraft, by that I mean people whom you hire to build your airplane, or people who build with the intent to sell. I’d bet few RV-10’s are flown by their builders or Lancair IVP’s 

Experimentals have a much higher accident and fatality rate also.  I like the idea of been able to tinker but the problem is a lot of people think they know more than they do, then they tinker with something that gets them killed. Like my friend with the vans RV8. one night during a flight through very heavy rain, the engine started to run so rough he thought he was going to crash. 
turns out the airplane was equipped to some kind of homemade ram air box, but the ram air was also on with carburetor heat. There’s effectively no alternate air for the engine.  
When I brought this up, they said we never thought we would need that.

[Schllc]

11 hours ago, alextstone said:

It's moments like this  that I regret not buying that Lancair Legacy I had my eye on before I bought the Bravo.  

I have those moments too, about the turbine lancair, but it’s ironic that almost every time I have the regret and go back to look I see one that had another gear collapse. 
I then look at that flimsy looking set of bent paper clips, and then the side stick and I get happy about my Mooney again. 
I know my aversion to the side stick is irrational, but it just doesn’t feel right….

if I ever had a million or so to waste I would put a turbine on a Mooney. 
im still surprised that someone tinkered with a bonanza turbine mod before a Mooney….
(Not trying to open that thread again btw)  
 

I think electronic ignition on our engines will eventually be bulletproof as well, but as a few already pointed out, there just aren’t enough numbers to make it happen quickly. 
they probably made more Toyota gold Camrys last year than all ga piston planes ever made…

as soon as one of these upstarts gets it 90% there, continental or lycoming will buy it,  perfect it, and then install it standard. 
 

[jetdriven]

There is a turbine Mooney out there and nobody ever said anything bad about it. 

[aviatoreb]

3 hours ago, jetdriven said:

There is a turbine Mooney out there and nobody ever said anything bad about it. 

It’s too noisy.

no but seriously / what?

 

[A64Pilot]

4 hours ago, jetdriven said:

There is a turbine Mooney out there and nobody ever said anything bad about it. 

TBM?

[alextstone]

11 hours ago, Schllc said:

I have those moments too, about the turbine lancair, but it’s ironic that almost every time I have the regret and go back to look I see one that had another gear collapse. 
I then look at that flimsy looking set of bent paper clips, and then the side stick and I get happy about my Mooney again. 
I know my aversion to the side stick is irrational, but it just doesn’t feel right….

if I ever had a million or so to waste I would put a turbine on a Mooney. 
im still surprised that someone tinkered with a bonanza turbine mod before a Mooney….
(Not trying to open that thread again btw)  
 

I think electronic ignition on our engines will eventually be bulletproof as well, but as a few already pointed out, there just aren’t enough numbers to make it happen quickly. 
they probably made more Toyota gold Camrys last year than all ga piston planes ever made…

as soon as one of these upstarts gets it 90% there, continental or lycoming will buy it,  perfect it, and then install it standard. 
 

Yeah, I've had those moments as well.  I also have them every time I need to use FIKI.  All in all, we have a great platform.

[EricJ]

I saw a turbine Cessna 310 last summer.    I think they took the cylinders off and the props turn freely in the wind.   It's pretty cool.

[A64Pilot]

We saw this years ago on a flight to the NWT, props don’t turn through 

 

Edited April 12, 2022 by A64Pilot

[afward]

On 4/10/2022 at 5:00 PM, EricJ said:

I was just thinking that, that if this system were the state of the art and somebody showed up with a "new technology" magneto that was much simpler and didn't need a battery to operate and was self-powered and independent of the electrical system, people would be scrambling to buy it.

What you are describe is E-Mags: https://emagair.com/

Sadly, they have specifically declared they will not pursue PMA / STC for certificated aircraft.

[aviatoreb]

34 minutes ago, afward said:

What you are describe is E-Mags: https://emagair.com/

Sadly, they have specifically declared they will not pursue PMA / STC for certificated aircraft.

Yes - sadly indeed - I was watching them closely about 5 or 6 years ago - since I feel their solution is the best of all worlds.  It will continue to work even if the ships power goes inop just like a an old school mag.  Its the best of all worlds, self contained unit like a surefly but the e-mag also  has an on board mini alternator so that it will continue soldiering on if the ships power dies.

So when it became clear that e-mag wold not come any time soon but surefly became available, I got myself a surefly kit.  But I would not consider going a double surefly since they say that a single surely gets you 80% of the hot spark benefit, all of the easy start benefit, and nice knowing it is a modern system, but also, you still have an old school 1915 technology tractor worthy mag as backup.  And I say that even though my airplane has two big 35mAmp batteries.

[EricJ]

55 minutes ago, afward said:

What you are describe is E-Mags: https://emagair.com/

Or a magneto, which is less complex.

 

[afward]

Well...  I'd disagree on that.  A fixed timing electronic magneto can be built using some power supply circuitry, hall effect sensors, a coil, a set of power MOSFETs (I think; may need SCRs for the high voltage), and a handful of other minor components.  I've also looked at using an Arduino to do that (plus some), and the code involved really just isn't that complicated.  Once prototyped it's a triggered timer with lookup tables.  Just about any 2nd year CS student could code that to a decent level of functional.

All that said, I'm not jumping on the EI bandwagon anytime soon...  I literally just put new mags on (haven't even spun the engine yet) and would prefer to wait for possibly a better option later on.

[A64Pilot]

Go look at a weed eater or a lawnmower, chainsaw, those are self generating electronic ignitions and have been for decades

‘Someone said it’s hard to do, but it doesn’t seem so.

The Suzuki 20HP outboard I had on my dinghy was electronic ignition and electronic fuel injection, with no battery so when you pulled that cord all of the electricity needed to run both systems was generated and fuel injection started and ignition firing before you got the cord halfway out.