AOG TLH

[FloridaMan]

Lost a bunch of oil in my Rocket and decided to leave it on the ramp until having a diagnosis. I can fly my mechanic up as I’m only a couple hours away, but if there’s someone recommended up there it might make it a bit easier for me. 

[kortopates]

any sign of where? did you fly high?


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[carusoam]

See if @mike_elliott is around (mechanic recommendation around KTLH)

Rocket AOG missing oil…

Best regards,

-a-

[FloridaMan]

2 hours ago, kortopates said:

any sign of where? did you fly high?


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N9801Y. There was some oil on the gear doors, but not a significant amount. I lost close to 6 quarts. 

Edited March 13, 2022 by FloridaMan

[kortopates]

check your tail pipe, since it could be the seal in turbo


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[FloridaMan]

The tailpipe didn’t look bad. 
 

 

[FloridaMan]

At one point in the climb, I was around 100kias and cylinder #1 hit 430 out of nowhere. I opened the cowl flaps, enriched the mixture and leveled the wings to bring it back under 400. One thought is that maybe a ring cracked and let oil in the cylinder and that increased combustion temperature and pressurized the crankcase. 

[StevenL757]

23 minutes ago, FloridaMan said:

One thought is that maybe a ring cracked and let oil in the cylinder and that increased combustion temperature and pressurized the crankcase. 

Not likely...given the amount of oil you lost.

My first thought is that something may have hit your oil quick drain valve (if you have one installed)...?

[FlyingDude]

3 hours ago, kortopates said:

did you fly high?

How are High altitude and high oil consumption related? Thanks...

[exM20K]

Jim Herring at Centric  Aviation in Apalachicola has been wrenching on my Acclaim for a year and a half.  Familiar with big bore Continentals. PM me if you’d like his contact info.  Cell is best way to reach hiim, or just call Centric.
-dan

Edited March 13, 2022 by exM20K

[carusoam]

Is the belly coated?

That’s a lot of quarts….

And only a small pool showing up on the front wheel…

 

If it is a turbo seal… it is probably making a nice smoke cloud…

something has decided to drain somewhat cleanly under the cowl… (?)

 

Lets invite @M20Doc to join the discussion…

Good aviation skills by the way….  

Good luck with your next steps…

Best regards,

-a-

[PeteMc]

You lost the six quarts over what period?  Was it a 4-5 hour flight?

If it was something like a turbo seal or any number of other things on a long flight, I could see that it blew out slowly during the duration of the flight.  Was there no indication of a high or low (lack of oil to sense) oil temp during the flight?  And how much oil does the Rocket hold normally?  In my K that would be all but one quart (8 max, but usually only 7 when you check the dip stick).

 

[kortopates]

How are High altitude and high oil consumption related? Thanks...

a leaking/worn turbo seal looses oil proportionally to how hard it’s working. And they have to work much harder at altitude than down low. it’s often not even noticeable down low, 10K and less, till it gets really bad. the seal can leak on either the exhaust side or the intake/compressor side, which is even worse.


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[kortopates]

At one point in the climb, I was around 100kias and cylinder #1 hit 430 out of nowhere. I opened the cowl flaps, enriched the mixture and leveled the wings to bring it back under 400. One thought is that maybe a ring cracked and let oil in the cylinder and that increased combustion temperature and pressurized the crankcase. 

oil in the intake (from turbo leaking on the intake/compressor side) will cause a CHT escalation requiring a large power reduction to keep in check. see if the #1 cyl has the lowest tube coming out of the throttle body since that’s where the oil would go IF it is the turbo leaking. A mechanic can also pull the intake tube off at the cyl to see if it’s wet. But it doesn’t take much leakage into the intake to cause problems and you apparently lost lots of oil so would be skeptical that’s it except for the CHT escalation.


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[FloridaMan]

On 3/12/2022 at 11:16 PM, kortopates said:

a leaking/worn turbo seal looses oil proportionally to how hard it’s working. And they have to work much harder at altitude than down low. it’s often not even noticeable down low, 10K and less, till it gets really bad. the seal can leak on either the exhaust side or the intake/compressor side, which is even worse.


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I believe you nailed it. I pushed it hard on the way up there — 2400RPM at 34” and was at 23,000ft. Engine monitor data showed a drop in oil pressure about a half hour before landing. I didn’t see it as my workload was concentrated on the accumulation of ice I was experiencing through the descent and the JPI didn’t alert me to oil pressure dropping below the green as the red doesn’t start until 10psi. I’m somewhat annoyed at this as it loves to flash all sorts of warnings that don’t matter and aren’t placarded in operating limitations, such as RPM over 2500, or mp over 35”, et cetera, yet doesn’t fucking say anything when the 0.1” high numbers under oil pressure drops below the green arc. Pulled intake filter. Turbo is toast. Ordered remanufactured turbo, checked compression, bore scoped, checked dipstick tube pressure and inspected oil filter for metal. All is well except for the turbo. Will fly for 10 hours and check filter again for metal once new turbo is installed. 

[A64Pilot]

6 hours ago, FloridaMan said:

 the JPI didn’t alert me to oil pressure dropping below the green as the red doesn’t start until 10psi. I’m somewhat annoyed at this as it loves to flash all sorts of warnings that don’t matter and aren’t placarded in operating limitations, such as RPM over 2500, or mp over 35”, et cetera, yet doesn’t fucking say anything when the 0.1” high numbers under oil pressure drops below the green arc. Pulled intake filter. Turbo is toast. Ordered remanufactured turbo, checked compression, bore scoped, checked dipstick tube pressure and inspected oil filter for metal. All is well except for the turbo. Will fly for 10 hours and check filter again for metal once new turbo is installed. 

It’s called management by exception, Army does that, you have two big displays and on a mission you may have the map on one and a weapons page on the other, the story is if there is an engine problem it will autopage to the engine page, well the issue is an alert pilot with a normal gauge will possibly catch decreasing oil pressure in his or her scan, but the new way, it’s not even displayed until it’s now an emergency.

If your allowed to change limits, often only experimental are, but if your allowed, put the yellow range just below normal flight numbers, and just live with the yellow during taxi etc.

I ran into similar issues when I certified the MVP-50T on several models of aircraft, older engines like Pratt & Whitney had no yellow ranges, so you were supposed to set the prop at 2200 for takeoff, but 2201 was an exceedence, so if you hit 2201 on takeoff, you had the red Emergency indications. Engines just aren’t capable of holding RPM within plus or minus 1 RPM but back in the day when the limits were written they were written that way, and it wasn’t a problem back then because no one was watching that close

Without some yellow ranges on either side of the red, I don’t see a fix.

It’s obviously from bringing legacy analog equipment into the digital world

Edited March 28, 2022 by A64Pilot

[kortopates]

10 hours ago, FloridaMan said:

I believe you nailed it. I pushed it hard on the way up there — 2400RPM at 34” and was at 23,000ft. Engine monitor data showed a drop in oil pressure about a half hour before landing. I didn’t see it as my workload was concentrated on the accumulation of ice I was experiencing through the descent and the JPI didn’t alert me to oil pressure dropping below the green as the red doesn’t start until 10psi. I’m somewhat annoyed at this as it loves to flash all sorts of warnings that don’t matter and aren’t placarded in operating limitations, such as RPM over 2500, or mp over 35”, et cetera, yet doesn’t fucking say anything when the 0.1” high numbers under oil pressure drops below the green arc. Pulled intake filter. Turbo is toast. Ordered remanufactured turbo, checked compression, bore scoped, checked dipstick tube pressure and inspected oil filter for metal. All is well except for the turbo. Will fly for 10 hours and check filter again for metal once new turbo is installed. 

Sorry to hear this. It happens unfortunately but I know you'll be prepared for it next time. With enough Turbo hours, all of us have been there, done that.

In an abundance of caution, be sure to check the engine oil screen too at the rear bottom too!

[FloridaMan]

5 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

It’s called management by exception, Army does that, you have two big displays and on a mission you may have the map on one and a weapons page on the other, the story is if there is an engine problem it will autopage to the engine page, well the issue is an alert pilot with a normal gauge will possibly catch decreasing oil pressure in his or her scan, but the new way, it’s not even displayed until it’s now an emergency.

If your allowed to change limits, often only experimental are, but if your allowed, put the yellow range just below normal flight numbers, and just live with the yellow during taxi etc.

I ran into similar issues when I certified the MVP-50T on several models of aircraft, older engines like Pratt & Whitney had no yellow ranges, so you were supposed to set the prop at 2200 for takeoff, but 2201 was an exceedence, so if you hit 2201 on takeoff, you had the red Emergency indications. Engines just aren’t capable of holding RPM within plus or minus 1 RPM but back in the day when the limits were written they were written that way, and it wasn’t a problem back then because no one was watching that close

Without some yellow ranges on either side of the red, I don’t see a fix.

It’s obviously from bringing legacy analog equipment into the digital world

And the 1RPM over is wrong, just like the 30psi limitation on oil pressure for the IO360 in my m20f. Even though redline was 30 for the original gauge. The fuel servo limit is 45, and Lycoming’s service bulletin for engine overspeed allows 2% over for redline with digital tachs. Not to mention, my JPI on my F has a yellow region below the red for oil pressure that wasn’t on the factory gauge or in the limitations, but my rocket does not. I assume there’s a similar allowance for Continental as well, though I haven’t stumbled onto a service bulletin for it yet. 

[PT20J]

I don't always like some of the ways Garmin does things, but I really like the way it designed the G3X EIS. It is possible to set colored ranges that only display and it is also possible to set yellow ranges that trigger a master caution and red ranges that trigger a master warning. In addition to displaying on the errant indication on the PFD, the master warning and master caution have discrete outputs. I had these connected to my PMA 450B so that I get voice annunciations. Since only red and yellow ranges cause alerts, exceeding a red line slightly won't cause a nuisance alert.

Skip

[Fly Boomer]

13 hours ago, FloridaMan said:

checked dipstick tube pressure

I did a search, and found a thread, but not much detail.  What's the procedure for checking the dipstick tube pressure (Continental if it matters)?

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, PT20J said:

I don't always like some of the ways Garmin does things, but I really like the way it designed the G3X EIS. It is possible to set colored ranges that only display and it is also possible to set yellow ranges that trigger a master caution and red ranges that trigger a master warning. In addition to displaying on the errant indication on the PFD, the master warning and master caution have discrete outputs. I had these connected to my PMA 450B so that I get voice annunciations. Since only red and yellow ranges cause alerts, exceeding a red line slightly won't cause a nuisance alert.

Skip

I have a similar system with my JPI 900 engine monitor and AV-17 voice annunciator.   I could use the PMA 450B, too, but the AV-17 has some dedicated inputs for landing gear, stall warning, etc., so adding the one for "Engine Monitor" is also useful.    It isn't very selective, though, in that anything in the JPI 900 that will trigger the red LED triggers the AV-17, which just says "Engine Monitor".    A nice thing on the JPI, though, is that if it is triggering an alarm it'll keep whatever is triggering it in big, bold type on the bottom of the display.    So if the AV-17 gives an audio alert, a glance at the JPI immediately tells you what it is for.    That's done good and saved me a lot of money and hassle quite a few times. 

 

[Marauder]

I believe you nailed it. I pushed it hard on the way up there — 2400RPM at 34” and was at 23,000ft. Engine monitor data showed a drop in oil pressure about a half hour before landing. I didn’t see it as my workload was concentrated on the accumulation of ice I was experiencing through the descent and the JPI didn’t alert me to oil pressure dropping below the green as the red doesn’t start until 10psi. I’m somewhat annoyed at this as it loves to flash all sorts of warnings that don’t matter and aren’t placarded in operating limitations, such as RPM over 2500, or mp over 35”, et cetera, yet doesn’t fucking say anything when the 0.1” high numbers under oil pressure drops below the green arc. Pulled intake filter. Turbo is toast. Ordered remanufactured turbo, checked compression, bore scoped, checked dipstick tube pressure and inspected oil filter for metal. All is well except for the turbo. Will fly for 10 hours and check filter again for metal once new turbo is installed. 

When my oil is warm and I am on the ground idling, my JPI 900 lights the remote indicator yellow when my OP drops below 60. I also have an AV-17 connected to it and I will get a “Check oil pressure” aural warning.

I think the JPI without the indicator only shows it on the 900’s display. The remote indicator is easy to install. There’s an adapter cable already wired for it. It might be worthwhile sticking the indicator in your panel.



If you do install the remote indicator, make sure they send the ferrite filter with it.




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[A64Pilot]

7 hours ago, FloridaMan said:

And the 1RPM over is wrong, just like the 30psi limitation on oil pressure for the IO360 in my m20f. Even though redline was 30 for the original gauge. The fuel servo limit is 45, and Lycoming’s service bulletin for engine overspeed allows 2% over for redline with digital tachs. Not to mention, my JPI on my F has a yellow region below the red for oil pressure that wasn’t on the factory gauge or in the limitations, but my rocket does not. I assume there’s a similar allowance for Continental as well, though I haven’t stumbled onto a service bulletin for it yet. 

I don’t understand what your saying.

 I assume are not allowed to adjust the red and yellow ranges on a certified installation are you? I know with EI your not, they have to program the manufacturers limits, you fill out a limits sheet when you order the equipment, it can be changed of course if you have the password, but they aren’t allowed to give it out, unless it’s for an Experimental.

Things may have changed in the 10 years since I was doing it, but I’d be surprised if your allowed to set the limits where you want on a Certified aircraft.

 So far as those allowances your talking about, I bet they are maintenance allowances, not gauge markings, meaning if overspeed is less than X no inspection is required. The gauge markings should be in your POH, and replacing steam gauges with electronic is of course fine, but I think you have to have the same range markings

Edited March 29, 2022 by A64Pilot

[kortopates]

I don’t understand what your saying.
 I assume are not allowed to adjust the red and yellow ranges on a certified installation are you? I know with EI your not, they have to program the manufacturers limits, you fill out a limits sheet when you order the equipment, it can be changed of course if you have the password, but they aren’t allowed to give it out, unless it’s for an Experimental.
Things may have changed in the 10 years since I was doing it, but I’d be surprised if your allowed to set the limits where you want on a Certified aircraft.
 So far as those allowances your talking about, I bet they are maintenance allowances, not gauge markings, meaning if overspeed is less than X no inspection is required. The gauge markings should be in your POH, and replacing steam gauges with electronic is of course fine, but I think you have to have the same range markings

JPI allows setting up Pre-alarm messages; such as a CHT alarm at 400F versus the factory limit. Unfortunately, the many options for these don’t include oil pressure.

https://www.jpinstruments.com/FAQCategory/primary-instrument-alarms/


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[carusoam]

20 minutes ago, kortopates said:

dupe

Delete button is hiding at the top of the post under the “…” looking thing…

-a-