Path to flying a mooney

[Trow28]

Hi all,

Been lurking here for a while, but just joined the forum today.  I'm a student pilot flying 172 in final prep for my PPL check.  My goal is to make some GA friends, gain experience, then eventually buy my own plane.  Been spending a lot of time trying to figure out what make/model I would want and I just keep coming back to the M20.  Maybe a 'C' or maybe a 'J' just not sure yet.  Please be patient with me, just trying to figure it all out and have lots of questions.  

First question, want to start with the high level basics.  How do I get from where I am now to where I want to be:

1. IFR Rating
2. Transition to low wing
3. Complex endorsement
4. Buy an M20

But is that the right order?  I keep hearing that a 200hp plane is a lot to deal with for a freshly minted newbie and I totally get that.  

Would love to hear your opinions.

 

 

 

[Fly Boomer]

Find a Cherokee (or derivative) while you are still working with an instructor.  Many flight schools have both high- and low-wing airplanes.

[Z W]

Just keep going.  Transition from a 172 to a M20C or J is no big deal.  High vs. low wing, other than a little more float in ground effect, only matters when you're getting in and out of the plane.  Complex endorsement, you'll have to remember to put the gear down.  In the Mooney that's easy, it's the easiest way to slow down.

I would suggest buying the M20 and using it to get your instrument rating.  You want to end up owning anyways, and that way you'll be very familiar with instrument flying in your plane.  It doesn't make sense to pay to rent a trainer for all those hours, then turn around and buy another plane, then have to learn the new plane.

The M20C remains one of the best values in GA if you ask me, especially in today's hot market.  Good luck.

[Hank]

4 minutes ago, Z W said:

Just keep going.  Transition from a 172 to a M20C or J is no big deal.  High vs. low wing, other than a little more float in ground effect, only matters when you're getting in and out of the plane.  Complex endorsement, you'll have to remember to put the gear down.  In the Mooney that's easy, it's the easiest way to slow down.

I would suggest buying the M20 and using it to get your instrument rating.  You want to end up owning anyways, and that way you'll be very familiar with instrument flying in your plane.  It doesn't make sense to pay to rent a trainer for all those hours, then turn around and buy another plane, then have to learn the new plane.

The M20C remains one of the best values in GA if you ask me, especially in today's hot market.  Good luck.

That's what I did. PPL in a 172, five weeks later bought an M20-C. Flew it it couple years to learn it well, flying it became almost second nature. Then got my IR using my Mooney, and learned a lot more about flying in general and flying my Mooney.

The complex endorsement is two things:  power management and lowering the gear. There are now three levers hooked up to the engine, while my rental Cessna used only the throttle except when shutting down . . .

[Yetti]

It's not a jet.  Buy the mooney.  Get transition training

[Utah20Gflyer]

I went from trainers (172s, Cherokees, DA40s, etc to an 200 hp Piper arrow at 115 hours, 15 hours later I bought my G model Mooney.  120 hours later in the Mooney it seems like a really easy plane to fly.  My recommendation is to do something similar, transition to a complex airplane and get the complex rating while you are looking for a plane. Then when you do find the plane you like you'll have one less thing to do and will have some retractable time which may make your insurance company happier.  

I was really nervous about the transition before I purchased but looking back now it really wasn't nearly the big deal I thought it would be.  

[kortopates]

You really don't need anything but your private to move into a mooney easily and a competent Mooney CFI to provide good transition training. (You could finish your private in it if you really wanted too but I wouldn't recommend it even though I do that kind of training.) Whether or not you do your IFR in your own Mooney is a harder question. But if you have access to affordable well equipped rentals I'd stick to renting to get your instrument. For example all the rentals in my neck of the woods have a Garmin GTN with dual G5's and most have the GFC-500 AP whereas Vintage Mooneys avionics are usually far below that level. Plus right now you can't possibly know what you'll want in a IFR panel for the longterm after you do get your instrument and some IMC experience. Lastly, getting a rating in your own plane will subject you to maintenance delays that are not predictable versus in rental you can usually hop into another aircraft. Don't discount that when you buy a older plane the first year or two you have to catch up on lots of deferred maintenance which will plague your dispatch rate till you get caught up.

But again these tradeoff's are specific to what's available to you in your area as a renter.

I'll add my private student bought a '90 something  J to finish his private right after first soloing. He's been extremely fortunate on the maintenance front in that his shop has been able to fix airworthiness issues same week to minimize delays in training - as long as he continued to write the checks to the shop. I'll also add he also would have had his private a LOT earlier if he had just finished it in the Cessna and we'd be would likely be working on his instrument in the J by now. But he'll get their too.

[MikeOH]

Finish your PPL. Don’t worry about the transition, it is no a big deal. Same with HP and complex.

Fly some different planes; make sure you really want a Mooney (I’m probably going to be excommunicated for that comment!)

There are many ‘flavors’ of Mooneys; what will you be using the plane for? Local hops & and an occasional trip? Or, depending upon it for biz transportation year round? Even the latter won’t truly be year round in some parts of the country. You might want to rent for awhile after your PPL just to see how you actually make use of a plane.

[Vance Harral]

Here's some data to help you feel comfortable with the advice given by others above: since launching our 1976 M20F partnership in 2004, we have transitioned six different pilots from 100-ish hour, Cessna-based PPL newbies, to righteous Mooney pilots (myself included).  One of those folks already had a complex endorsement when they joined the partnership, but the other five knocked out a complex endorsement as part of the required dual instruction to be insured for solo.  No one landed gear up or burned up a motor or had any kind of other incident.  Of those six folks, four of them completed their IR training and took their IR check ride in the Mooney.  One went on to complete a CPL, CFI, and CFII in the Mooney (that's me!)

So... based on real world data, it's very reasonable to purchase an M20C or M20J shortly after completing your PPL in Cessnas.  MikeOH's advice about trying other makes and models before purchasing is sound.  But if you reach a point where you're convinced you'd ultimately like to fly a Mooney, start looking immediately after making that decision.  You do not need to complete your instrument rating, or "transition to low wing", or get a complex endorsement prior to doing so.  I know this because of all the people who've successfully made these transitions after buying in to our partnership.  All of them are great guys, but none of us are super-ace birdmen: just decent pilots who like Mooneys and who have reasonable attitudes about training.

[Fly Boomer]

3 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Fly some different planes

+1

[Greg Ellis]

16 hours ago, Trow28 said:

Hi all,

Been lurking here for a while, but just joined the forum today.  I'm a student pilot flying 172 in final prep for my PPL check.  My goal is to make some GA friends, gain experience, then eventually buy my own plane.  Been spending a lot of time trying to figure out what make/model I would want and I just keep coming back to the M20.  Maybe a 'C' or maybe a 'J' just not sure yet.  Please be patient with me, just trying to figure it all out and have lots of questions.  

First question, want to start with the high level basics.  How do I get from where I am now to where I want to be:

1. IFR Rating
2. Transition to low wing
3. Complex endorsement
4. Buy an M20

But is that the right order?  I keep hearing that a 200hp plane is a lot to deal with for a freshly minted newbie and I totally get that.  

Would love to hear your opinions.

 

 

 

What airport and with what school are you getting your PPL?  I am based at Spinks.

[BravoWhiskey]

Got my PPL on 172-160hp

Got my IFR on PA28-180hp

got my complex endorsement on PA28R-200

bought Mooney and got high performance and transition training on that… and transition to glass panel.

I enjoyed learning on the different planes and with different instructors.  I’d recommend that approach to you.

[Trow28]

10 hours ago, MikeOH said:

Finish your PPL. Don’t worry about the transition, it is no a big deal. Same with HP and complex.

Fly some different planes; make sure you really want a Mooney (I’m probably going to be excommunicated for that comment!)

There are many ‘flavors’ of Mooneys; what will you be using the plane for? Local hops & and an occasional trip? Or, depending upon it for biz transportation year round? Even the latter won’t truly be year round in some parts of the country. You might want to rent for awhile after your PPL just to see how you actually make use of a plane.

Local hops and occasional trips about nails it.  Plan to use it for weekend trips to South Padre and Port Aransas.  I have good friends just south of Denver that I'd like to visit a couple of times a year.  My parents snowbird their way to Siesta Key each winter so will likely make a yearly trip over there.  Also, want to see the country and hate spending gobs of time in the car.

[Trow28]

7 hours ago, Greg Ellis said:

What airport and with what school are you getting your PPL?  I am based at Spinks.

As luck would have it I'm with Spinks Flight Center right now.  Not sure if you know those guys over there.  I started with Stephen Tims.  He went big time and hooked up with Envoy so I'm finishing with Zach Tomas.  Their personalities couldn't be more different but I'm happy to have the experience of learning from both.

[Trow28]

Lots of great advice here!  Thanks to all who responded.  I like the idea of "Just keep going" and "Fly some different planes".  

@kortopates That's some good stuff to chew on.  I hadn't really given much consideration to the IFR panel but that's a great point.

 

[Z W]

17 hours ago, kortopates said:

Whether or not you do your IFR in your own Mooney is a harder question. But if you have access to affordable well equipped rentals I'd stick to renting to get your instrument. For example all the rentals in my neck of the woods have a Garmin GTN with dual G5's and most have the GFC-500 AP whereas Vintage Mooneys avionics are usually far below that level.

Interesting thoughts.  I'm not sure I agree with them.  I would want to learn on the instruments I'll be flying.  I would think training to do approaches on a modern Garmin panel with full autopilot, then being thrown into an older Mooney with vintage avionics, would make for a steep learning curve and require a lot of additional training.  I learned to do approaches in an older Mooney with vintage avionics and a 2-axis wing leveler, and then later had to learn Garmin.  I think doing it that way would be far easier than the opposite.

Best option would be learn on glass and then buy a plane with a glass panel.  We're far better off without vintage avionics for IFR flight.  But that's budget-permitting.

[Greg Ellis]

13 hours ago, Trow28 said:

As luck would have it I'm with Spinks Flight Center right now.  Not sure if you know those guys over there.  I started with Stephen Tims.  He went big time and hooked up with Envoy so I'm finishing with Zach Tomas.  Their personalities couldn't be more different but I'm happy to have the experience of learning from both.

I am familiar with the school in the fact that I know it is there but I have never had any interactions with them.  I hope it is going well for you.  If you ever want a ride in a C model, just PM me.  I am usually there about every other weekend or so.

[WaynePierce]

Before I finished my PPL, 15 years ago I bought in to a partnership in a 180 Cherokee. It was a great platform and not fast so building hours was easier if you need that. I don't. I started working on my IR in that Cherokee, it was dirt simple and no complications, plus it's slow so you have time to stay ahead of the plane in IR training. I was ready for the checkride, or within less than 5 hours and was diagnosed with Cancer so I had to give it up. By the time I was able to fly again my written had expired and I just barely passed that as it was. I started looking for a Mooney 4 years ago and as luck would have it I found a J model listed by All American Aircraft (I got on their mail list so I would see things before they hit the market). Fast forward three years and again I am working on my IR in my J. The only real downside is in the short hops in the local area trying to go missed then do some holds all happens MUCH quicker in the Mooney. It's also harder for me to slow down for the ride from IAF to FAF but that will come with experience. I'm still dreading the written.

If you are trying to work on your Commercial it's much easier to get your hours in a Cherokee than in your Mooney. My 5 hour Cherokee trips are only 4 or less in the Mooney. Terrible problem, I know...

 

[carusoam]

Summary…. Sort of…

1) Get deep into your training doing what you are doing…. 
2) Many finish their PPL training before buying their plane…

3) Training for the IR in your IR plane is the best way to get the most out of the systems that you have….  Good for your health.
4) Training for your IR with a limited panel… may not be a really good idea… if your real goal is to be a commercial pilot flying the big planes…

 

5) If you didn’t clearly state or re-state your goals… think about it again and update, weekly, monthly, annually… you will learn a ton as you go… the more you know, the more tuned your ideas get….

6) M20C is a great way to get started….

7) An M20J is a more expensive way to get started…

8) M20Cs make great forever planes… as do M20Js…

9) M20Es are right in the middle of M20C and M20J…. c’s airframe, J’s engine…   
 

10) M20Es make great forever planes…

Finish strong!

Best regards,

-a-

 

[Trow28]

Just now, Greg Ellis said:

I am familiar with the school in the fact that I know it is there but I have never had any interactions with them.  I hope it is going well for you.  If you ever want a ride in a C model, just PM me.  I am usually there about every other weekend or so.

I would LOVE to go up.  Sending PM.

[Trow28]

Just now, WaynePierce said:

Before I finished my PPL, 15 years ago I bought in to a partnership in a 180 Cherokee. It was a great platform and not fast so building hours was easier if you need that. I don't. I started working on my IR in that Cherokee, it was dirt simple and no complications, plus it's slow so you have time to stay ahead of the plane in IR training. I was ready for the checkride, or within less than 5 hours and was diagnosed with Cancer so I had to give it up. By the time I was able to fly again my written had expired and I just barely passed that as it was. I started looking for a Mooney 4 years ago and as luck would have it I found a J model listed by All American Aircraft (I got on their mail list so I would see things before they hit the market). Fast forward three years and again I am working on my IR in my J. The only real downside is in the short hops in the local area trying to go missed then do some holds all happens MUCH quicker in the Mooney. It's also harder for me to slow down for the ride from IAF to FAF but that will come with experience. I'm still dreading the written.

If you are trying to work on your Commercial it's much easier to get your hours in a Cherokee than in your Mooney. My 5 hour Cherokee trips are only 4 or less in the Mooney. Terrible problem, I know...

 

Hi Wayne.  Thanks for the info.  I'll keep American Aircraft on my radar, especially since they are in state.

Hey, just want to say that I hope you are doing well and have beaten the Cancer.  Big props for pursuing your dream despite all that.

[Trow28]

Just now, carusoam said:

Summary…. Sort of…

1) Get deep into your training doing what you are doing…. 
2) Many finish their PPL training before buying their plane…

3) Training for the IR in your IR plane is the best way to get the most out of the systems that you have….  Good for your health.
4) Training for your IR with a limited panel… may not be a really good idea… if your real goal is to be a commercial pilot flying the big planes…

 

5) If you didn’t clearly state or re-state your goals… think about it again and update, weekly, monthly, annually… you will learn a ton as you go… the more you know, the more tuned your ideas get….

6) M20C is a great way to get started….

7) An M20J is a more expensive way to get started…

8) M20Cs make great forever planes… as do M20Js…

9) M20Es are right in the middle of M20C and M20J…. c’s airframe, J’s engine…   
 

10) M20Es make great forever planes…

Finish strong!

Best regards,

-a-

 

Thanks Carusoam.  Nice summary.  Y'all have opened my eyes to one thing that I hadn't thought about and that is IFR equipment that I learn on VS what I end up flying.  Thanks for adding another variable to an already complicated equation

I'm hearing C/E/J models to focus on. I've also heard good things about the F.  This is a great segway to my next question which I will pose on a new thread.

[carusoam]

3 minutes ago, Trow28 said:

Thanks Carusoam.  Nice summary.  Y'all have opened my eyes to one thing that I hadn't thought about and that is IFR equipment that I learn on VS what I end up flying.  Thanks for adding another variable to an already complicated equation

I'm hearing C/E/J models to focus on. I've also heard good things about the F.  This is a great segway to my next question which I will pose on a new thread.

Consider keeping your thoughts in one thread…

It is better for you as things change over time…

Find Alex Raptor if you want a great example why…

consider being more memorable… add a pic to your avatar…

Best regards,

-a-

[kortopates]

On 3/8/2022 at 4:05 AM, Z W said:

Interesting thoughts.  I'm not sure I agree with them.  I would want to learn on the instruments I'll be flying.  I would think training to do approaches on a modern Garmin panel with full autopilot, then being thrown into an older Mooney with vintage avionics, would make for a steep learning curve and require a lot of additional training.  I learned to do approaches in an older Mooney with vintage avionics and a 2-axis wing leveler, and then later had to learn Garmin.  I think doing it that way would be far easier than the opposite.

Best option would be learn on glass and then buy a plane with a glass panel.  We're far better off without vintage avionics for IFR flight.  But that's budget-permitting.

Of course there is a big advantage to learning on the instruments you'll be flying. No more added training after your ticket. But your training will be limited to your installed instruments. My comments were directed on why its makes sense to get the instrument rating before purchasing the Mooney. Although all of us flying for many years got our tickets before GPS, these days RNAV GPS is half the training/knowledge of flying in the modern IFR world. Plus before any instrument training we really don't have a clue of what kind of panel we want.

Being trained in a modern panel does prepare you for flying virtually anything including limited vintage avionics. The training requires us to be able to do everything. Even though one learns how use a GPS and fly the different RNAV approaches, we still learn to how to fly conventional approaches without the GPS including how to fly holds off VOR radials, using the GPS only for DME distance, and properly time the hold. The modern candidate needs to demonstrate proficiency with all the installed equipment. Really the  key differences any pilot will experience are the same moving between any aircraft - how to adjust their scan based on different instruments including digital versus analog round dial. 

There are many advantages to getting your instrument rating on a modern rental panel before you buy your instrument equipped Mooney and especially spend money on panel upgrades. They'll be much more knowledgeable about the technology and able to use most equipment they'll come across with some familiarization practice or training.

Edited March 9, 2022 by kortopates