Mooney factory for sale

[MikeOH]

5 hours ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

 

Don't you know that hitmen are cheaper than lawyers?

Ah, the voice of experience! 

[xavierde]

On 11/1/2021 at 9:57 PM, jetdriven said:

Perhaps he can show her the new piper Meridian with auto land. Because you know turbine engines are about 15 times or 20 times more reliable than pistons, and the auto land is kind of like a parachute in a way... it gets you to the runway and even stops. So it's even better, you don't have to hike out of the woods.

Good point and so does the latest TBM. That could also be a great addition to our Mooneys although it might be more of a feel good feature than something used on a regular basis... and require a lot of work e.g. auto-braking.

[JoeFFG9]

To get back in the market, Mooney would have to bring a model which is affordable, efficient, has a chute and get the speeds of at least the J model. Affordable means so that the middle classes can get back into the new airplane market. Whether it's aluminum or plastic does not matter at all
 
Best regards,

Urs

 

This doesn't appear to be realistic unless some drastic changes in the way planes can be manufactured. Planes will never be as cheap as they were in the 50's, 60's and part 70's where a person with a higher income job could afford a new plane. Maybe the future for us regular "Joe's" is the Experimental market with the Builder Assist programs. Van's and mostly Sling have been promoting this feature for those that don't have hundreds of free hours (and skill) and an available garage.  

[toto]

I'm interested to see what the next 10 years will bring for Cirrus.  Since basically every newly-designed SEP aircraft has a parachute, and every experimental has a parachute option, we're slowly reaching a point where the "Which one has a parachute" question is answered "All of them."

I wonder how Cirrus will hold up when compared to other options, all of which have parachutes.

[EricJ]

9 minutes ago, toto said:

I'm interested to see what the next 10 years will bring for Cirrus.  Since basically every newly-designed SEP aircraft has a parachute, and every experimental has a parachute option, we're slowly reaching a point where the "Which one has a parachute" question is answered "All of them."

I'm not sure it'll go that way.   BRS systems add a lot of weight, initial expense, lifetime maintenance expense, and some risk, so there'll always be those who prefer to not incur those burdens as a practical matter.

[toto]

30 minutes ago, EricJ said:

I'm not sure it'll go that way.   BRS systems add a lot of weight, initial expense, lifetime maintenance expense, and some risk, so there'll always be those who prefer to not incur those burdens as a practical matter.

I suspect that BRS will end up becoming a factory option for most planes. So they can say “yes” to the parachute question and end up selling half of their planes without one. 

[ZuluZulu]

On 10/31/2021 at 6:56 PM, Steve Yucht said:

The smart thing from this point would be to pick one model such as the Ovation or Acclaim and work on increasing the useful load. Preferably make it with a Jet-A diesel. Forget the chute.  There’s plenty of us who wouldn’t be discouraged by not having one.  Just make sure it has the nicest seats and latest avionics.  Don’t overthink it and aim for a small niche or the future of the Mooney will already have been written.

[large block of empty space trimmed]

They were already doing this, and they failed.  Evidently the plan was not sexy enough to raise sufficient capital, but they were already working on increasing the UL.  (But they went full vaporware by announcing it long before it was ready and then disappeared.)  How would you convince investors to get on board?  If we accept the premise that management's plan was on the right track, how do you solve their empty pockets problem?

[graham28105]

Cessna discontinued the 350/400 ttx in 2018. It did almost everything better than the Cirrus. It was missing something.

[1980Mooney]

20 minutes ago, graham28105 said:

Cessna discontinued the 350/400 ttx in 2018. It did almost everything better than the Cirrus. It was missing something.

Oh "Chute" - good point!

[mike_elliott]

On 11/4/2021 at 12:38 AM, ZuluZulu said:

They were already doing this, and they failed.  Evidently the plan was not sexy enough to raise sufficient capital, but they were already working on increasing the UL.  (But they went full vaporware by announcing it long before it was ready and then disappeared.)  How would you convince investors to get on board?  If we accept the premise that management's plan was on the right track, how do you solve their empty pockets problem?

How many people would be in for Mooney pulling a Genesys and giving say, 20K deposit for a 500# GW increase? Maybe we can get 150 people to pony up and get this passed the goal line. Final price to be determined, but perhaps early adaptors get a discount for their faith. If we can bring the 3M it will probably take to the table, it might get done.

 

 

[chriscalandro]

6 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

How many people would be in for Mooney pulling a Genesys and giving say, 20K deposit for a 500# GW increase? Maybe we can get 150 people to pony up and get this passed the goal line. Final price to be determined, but perhaps early adaptors get a discount for their faith. If we can bring the 3M it will probably take to the table, it might get done.

 

 

Putting 20k into any new factory Mooney development is a foolish investment. 
 

this would be a call for the desperate. 
 

 

[mike_elliott]

I guess you would not want the GWI. Fair enough. For it to be a worthwhile investment, you must first have a plane it would apply to, I suppose.

[aviatoreb]

8 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

I guess you would not want the GWI. Fair enough. For it to be a worthwhile investment, you must first have a plane it would apply to, I suppose.

Yeah - I mean really - the one guy who replies is a new guy who doesn't own a Mooney?  Alright Chris....

Ok - Mike - so I think I am typical of many Mooney OWNERS - I own a Mooney meaning I already picked a machine that suits my needs.  I have a 4 seater with the weight capacity to carry two for a long distance or 3 for a shorter distance or 4 for a very short distance.  The number of times I have carried 4 I can count on my left hand - and I won't even need to use my thumb when doing that.

But part of that is - I am being compliant.   Still for 12 years its worked, and now with the kids moved out, its either just me, or me and my wife, or me picking up one of my boys.  Probably 60% of the time solo, 39.95% if the time, 2-up and I will save .05% for the other.

Actually I do enjoy flying a machine that is usually over powered for the weight demands.  Still once in a while its a nontrivial improvement to be able to carry more.

So I am not NEEDing a weight increase and not a customer to invest 20k for it.  I WAS a customer to buy it anyway when the talk of it being cheaper was discussed - I don't remember the number - what was it?  Something like 5k?  I dunno.  And when the talk came to changing something about the landing gear - I was curious - would it be something other than pucks?  Something hydraulic?  Would the airplane sit higher?  I would be a possible customer for sake of improved landing gear - at that price point - separate from needing more useful load.

I WAS sitting up straight and watching when I was guessing that the weight increase would be a prelude to something else.  BRS- and possibly a landing gear setup more appropriate to that? I bet that's what they were planning but likely just for factory new.  But going down the wish list rabbit hole.... if all that came to be - I would pay a pretty penny for new landing gear, for more weight and then a BRS.

Ok, ok, no one please reply and tell me to go get a cirrus.  a) I don't want a cirrus.  I don't want brs enough to go buy a cirrus.  and b) I am irrationally attached to the very machine sitting in my hangar right now.  Not any Mooney.  That Mooney. Its painted just so, great interior.  Avionics, etc, and all fixed up over more than a decade and it suits me.  Oh and c) there is a substantial tax hit if buying a new aircraft in this state.  But that is more minor than a and b if I really wanted a different machine.  It is my intention to keep fixing up, maintaining, flying N314EB until something momentous happens to make me stop (knock on wood), health, or maybe avgas goes away (which I did worry about more but now at least we have GUL1000 coming).

Long rambling reply - so call me a plausible customer moderately interested but not enough unless I know what is actually planned, but more likely closer to the original price point - or even double that - but not quadruple that - mostly because of the fact that I am already good to go.

 

[Raymond J1]

Jonny has the solution of Mooney's revival in his business... This is the M10 T with a rotax 915.

[chriscalandro]

49 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Yeah - I mean really - the one guy who replies is a new guy who doesn't own a Mooney?  Alright Chris....

I think you ran out of butthole to speak out of after this part of your comment. Just because someone doesn’t share the same opinion as you doesn’t mean they don’t own the same product or brand of product. In fact, a significant percentage of the population here has been in or flown my airplane. 
 

your ignorant is showing brightly here. 
 

if you want to throw 20k at the ability to MAYBE buy an STC and spend a bunch more money from a company that can’t even make basic parts or cover its overhead then have at it. 
 

I think your market for this idea is not as big as you think it is though. Much like the market for a new factory built Mooney…

Edited November 8, 2021 by chriscalandro

[mike_elliott]

Erik I am sure it would be more than 20K to purchase the final product from an MSC.  I just threw that #  out there knowing it would probably take 3 million to get the GW increase across the goal line. That isnt making the part, that is the cost of regulatory and testing. What does it cost to replace the current flaps, and all 3 gear legs right now if you had to? 5K wont even begin to get it done unless Alan Fox is in one of his best moods or Jerry Pressley says F* it, just take this stuff. I am sure the final price would be something more than 20K for sure, and feel it would be worth it to a number of FIKI Bravo owners, TN owners etc. The question I posed is to poll how many here would have an interest?

And yes, Chris, no worries, no one minds if you dont feel it is worth it. David Vingiano could probably answer the how much is needed much better than my guess. My purpose is to find out if anyone thinks the GW increase is worth putting some skin in the game. 

But I, like you Chris, dont have a Mooney that it would affect, so my opinion, like yours, lacks standing and therefore is just wind.

[chriscalandro]

Aside from owning my C, I’m a partner in an airplane it would affect. 
 

I could see maybe gambling, let’s say, 5k toward the project to have the option in let’s say… 3 years. But not 20k. I like my money more than that. 
 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2021 by chriscalandro

[aviatoreb]

52 minutes ago, chriscalandro said:

I think you ran out of butthole to speak out of after this part of your comment. Just because someone doesn’t share the same opinion as you doesn’t mean they don’t own the same product or brand of product. In fact, a significant percentage of the population here has been in or flown my airplane. 
 

your ignorant is showing brightly here. 
 

if you want to throw 20k at the ability to MAYBE buy an STC and spend a bunch more money from a company that can’t even make basic parts or cover its overhead then have at it. 
 

I think your market for this idea is not as big as you think it is though. Much like the market for a new factory built Mooney…

You are new here so I will say, you have not picked up on the local culture.  We are not flippant or foul or childish in our language just because its the internet.  We speak to each other (well we type) mostly in the same manner as we would speak to each other in real life.  I am at work right now, and I don't speak to anyone with the language you use here, nor do I know a single other employee that speaks in that manner. I am guessing it is comparable at your place of work and community.  I enjoy that.  Even when we go off the rails and do what we seem to have mostly disavowed for certain topics, like politics that we seem to have collectively agreed to avoid, your language style is not going to gain respect, points, admirers or win a rant rave. Ironically - if you read the rest of my post to this - you would notice that I mostly was agreeing with you!  But south park?  And now buttonhole is your big come back?  I am not here for big comebacks anyway.  This particular response is just for a sober fyi, that you might not get the response here you think you are eliciting so far.   I do understand that you don't think it is a good idea to invest in this STC.  

Edited November 8, 2021 by aviatoreb

[aviatoreb]

13 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

Erik I am sure it would be more than 20K to purchase the final product from an MSC.  I just threw that #  out there knowing it would probably take 3 million to get the GW increase across the goal line. That isnt making the part, that is the cost of regulatory and testing. What does it cost to replace the current flaps, and all 3 gear legs right now if you had to? 5K wont even begin to get it done unless Alan Fox is in one of his best moods or Jerry Pressley says F* it, just take this stuff. I am sure the final price would be something more than 20K for sure, and feel it would be worth it to a number of FIKI Bravo owners, TN owners etc. The question I posed is to poll how many here would have an interest?

And yes, Chris, no worries, no one minds if you dont feel it is worth it. David Vingiano could probably answer the how much is needed much better than my guess. My purpose is to find out if anyone thinks the GW increase is worth putting some skin in the game. 

But I, like you Chris, dont have a Mooney that it would affect, so my opinion, like yours, lacks standing and therefore is just wind.

Hi Mike, I was incredibly surprised when I first heard (mistakenly I now realize) the idea of it being 5k.  Nothing as complicated as a major gear rework costs 5k in aviation.  SO I am agreeing with you completely that this sounds like a complicated and expensive job!  Honestly I would not be surprised if it is more like 50k out the door since I am imagining some very complicated workmanship - man hours - to do something like this.

Even so - I am not completely disinterested.  But as I said - it is sort of in the would be nice to have category rather than the must have or I need to trade my plane now category as I bet certain people find themselves.

I hope it goes!

Are you able to answer some of my technical curiosity as to what it is we are talking about?  Is it a similar kind of gear system - maybe rubber pucks but some engineering adjustments - new welds or new parts to increase the capacity?  Or is it some kind of complete replacement of the gear with something else - revealing my ignorance here - maybe hydraulic or springs or whatever else it is that small airplane are using? 

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

Which would you rather have, BPS or Autoland?

It seems to me that Autoland would be far cheaper to install/integrate in an old design, or even a new design.  New autopilot software and an actuator for the throttle should be sufficient, versus a whole new structural design, hardpoints, compartment to store the parachute and rocket, etc., etc. $$$.

Put the question to anyone who thinks a BPS sells airplanes, "Which is safer, Mooney with Autoland or Cirrus with BPS?"

[toto]

6 minutes ago, AH-1 Cobra Pilot said:

Which would you rather have, BPS or Autoland?

It seems to me that Autoland would be far cheaper to install/integrate in an old design, or even a new design.  New autopilot software and an actuator for the throttle should be sufficient, versus a whole new structural design, hardpoints, compartment to store the parachute and rocket, etc., etc. $$$.

Put the question to anyone who thinks a BPS sells airplanes, "Which is safer, Mooney with Autoland or Cirrus with BPS?"

The most significant piece of autoland, the Garmin Safe Glide functionality, costs zero dollars and is available to anyone with a GTN Xi.

Granted, this doesn't do the auto-throttle/auto-braking, but will get the plane to a runway if it's within gliding distance.

[Parker_Woodruff]

On 10/31/2021 at 3:39 PM, Urs_Wildermuth said:

GA is in decline, certified GA is on it's deathbed. It has been for years. And it is not really a surprise.

The reason is easy: The insane prices. We keep claiming that GA is not a rich man's spoils and that is halfways correct as there is a plentiful used market, but new airplanes which cost as much as a block of houses simply don't make sense.

 

 

 

 

The used market in the USA is thin with few available airplanes.  Things are ramping up again as COVID protocol has made airline travel completely miserable.  It's great.

[Jerry 5TJ]

We recently took a trip to NM and AR from here in Maryland to visit friends and family.   Originally we booked seats on Southwest but the airline canceled the non-stop flights and then rerouted us several more times.  So we showed them; we flew our own plane.  

[mike_elliott]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

Hi Mike, I was incredibly surprised when I first heard (mistakenly I now realize) the idea of it being 5k.  Nothing as complicated as a major gear rework costs 5k in aviation.  SO I am agreeing with you completely that this sounds like a complicated and expensive job!  Honestly I would not be surprised if it is more like 50k out the door since I am imagining some very complicated workmanship - man hours - to do something like this.

Even so - I am not completely disinterested.  But as I said - it is sort of in the would be nice to have category rather than the must have or I need to trade my plane now category as I bet certain people find themselves.

I hope it goes!

Are you able to answer some of my technical curiosity as to what it is we are talking about?  Is it a similar kind of gear system - maybe rubber pucks but some engineering adjustments - new welds or new parts to increase the capacity?  Or is it some kind of complete replacement of the gear with something else - revealing my ignorance here - maybe hydraulic or springs or whatever else it is that small airplane are using? 

Unfortunately, what I do know, I cannot say but it isnt much really. Suffice it to say it is a complete replacement of the gear and as far as I can surmise, with the higher GW, something will have to be done with the flaps to keep the stall speed below 61kts.

[exM20K]

2 minutes ago, mike_elliott said:

something will have to be done with the flaps to keep the stall speed below 61kts.

Without moving the center of lift aft. That tail is working pretty hard in the landing phase. Slats! That’s what we need!

-dan