IFD540 and GI275 as panel upgrade

[Flash]

I'm about to pull the trigger on the first panel upgrade (other than an L3 transponder for ADSB compliance) in my 22 years of owning my plane, a 1993 M20J with KLN90B, KI256, KX165, KX155, KCS-55a, KN64, WX1000+, KFC150, Shadin fuel flow, old EI US-8A engine monitor.

I plan to add an IFD540, which would be a WAAS upgrade (among other things) from my KLN90B (with which I've been perfectly happy). The only other thing I want to do is address the issue that I do not have a backup AI (though I do have standby vacuum). One way to do that would be to buy and install a GI275 (which would drive my KFC150) and keep my KI256 as a backup AI. Another, cheaper, solution would be to install a backup electric AI and keep my KI256 as primary. That's a little less good, as I'd lose my autopilot if I lost vacuum (and lost standby vacuum), and if the KI256 fails and I don't notice and the autopilot is engaged, all kinds of bad stuff could happen. So the GI275 might be worthwhile, and that's the direction I'm leaning.

There's certainly more that I could do, but I'm not sure I see the need to do anything else. I'm posting this to expose myself to any counterarguments (but not counterarguments against the IFD540, which I like more than the Garmin GPS/NavCom alternative, and not arguments that I should get a Garmin autopilot, as I'll stick with my KFC150, which seems more than adequate to the task).

Also, given the advice posted elsewhere on this board that the IFD540 will go up $1000 in price on Sunday, do I buy it now before knowing who will install it?

Thanks in advance for the wisdom you share with me (and for the wisdom you've already shared with me through your posts on other threads).

[Flash]

Here are photos of the current panel.

[Aerodon]

Flash,  its a lot of work to install a GI-275 with autopilot outputs.  And when you are done, you will regret not having done 2 while you are in behind the panel.  I am not sure of the full compatibility between the IFD540 and the GI-275.  I know the analog outputs will work, but not sure of all the digital communications (like GPSS).

One setup that I have quite come to like as a 'baby step' is to install a GI-275 as a MFD with battery backup in place of your KI206.  With a Garmin GTN series, this will be able to display GPS 1, Nav1, Nav 2, traffic, remote stormscope etc. and be your backup AI.  I'm not sure if you will get all the inputs from an IFD and KX165.

Aerodon

[carusoam]

There haven’t been many complaints from the IFD crowd… I think @LANCECASPER uses one in his Bravo…

 

Lets see if @Fly_M20R is cruising by…

He has installed a pair of GI275s in his M20R…

 

I’m a fan of ousting the TC… so if you end up with an electric AI In that spot… I’m good with that too….  

 

Let’s see if @bmcconnaha has anything to add regarding the IFD and the sale… or any tech details…

 

Best regards,

-a-

[Will.iam]

Wasn’t there some wonky crap about gi275 works with garmin 530w and idf-540 is a direct replacement but there isn’t a path for gi275 to IFR-540? I. E. Install the gi275 before installing the idf-540. 

[Flash]

1 hour ago, Will.iam said:

Wasn’t there some wonky crap about gi275 works with garmin 530w and idf-540 is a direct replacement but there isn’t a path for gi275 to IFR-540? I. E. Install the gi275 before installing the idf-540. 

Yep. I've found out in the last day that, although Avidyne expects/plans to list the GI275 as working with the IFD540, it does not yet have the GI275 listed as an AI source. So although dual GI275s with an IFD540 would be a nice panel, it might not yet be legal/doable.

[bmcconnaha]

Depends how the installer reads the equipment list for the IFD.  It's certified to slide and be a direct replacement for a 430/530w.  The equipment list in the manual says other equipment may work, but hasn't been tested by avidyne.  The GI275 will work with the IFD, but it's up to your installer to sign it off.  I did this with a pair of G5s before they were listed in the install manual.  We are doing this with a g3X at the end of the year.  

[dzeleski]

I have Dual G5s (plus 4 servo GFC500) with a IFD 440, everything works just fine, and as said above it should work just fine with the GI275. I would HIGHLY recommend bringing it to a shop that has done this exact setup before though. The only thing that doesnt work with this setup is VNAV, but the IFD still tells you decend to X in 5 seconds, so you just do it manually, not a huge deal.

I know its easier to say then do but I would also highly consider the GFC 500 at this point. Your panel is already going to be in a million pieces and the AP integration already needs to be re done. I would bite the bullet if you can and future proof your airplane with probably the best AP on the market for GA at this point. Go dual G5 or dual GI275, my preference is the G5 I think the 275 is a silly looking device with too much crammed onto it.

[EricJ]

32 minutes ago, dzeleski said:

I have Dual G5s (plus 4 servo GFC500) with a IFD 440, everything works just fine, and as said above it should work just fine with the GI275. I would HIGHLY recommend bringing it to a shop that has done this exact setup before though. The only thing that doesnt work with this setup is VNAV, but the IFD still tells you decend to X in 5 seconds, so you just do it manually, not a huge deal.

I know its easier to say then do but I would also highly consider the GFC 500 at this point. Your panel is already going to be in a million pieces and the AP integration already needs to be re done. I would bite the bullet if you can and future proof your airplane with probably the best AP on the market for GA at this point. Go dual G5 or dual GI275, my preference is the G5 I think the 275 is a silly looking device with too much crammed onto it.

That is a good side-by-side comparison of the two.   The G5 makes much better use of the space with the square display.    The GI-275 seems like a step backward to me in that regard.    Even if I were doing a new install I think I'd prefer G5s to the 275, although the MFD version as a CDI replacement is pretty attractive.
 

[Mooney Dog]

35 minutes ago, dzeleski said:

I have Dual G5s (plus 4 servo GFC500) with a IFD 440, everything works just fine, and as said above it should work just fine with the GI275. I would HIGHLY recommend bringing it to a shop that has done this exact setup before though. The only thing that doesnt work with this setup is VNAV, but the IFD still tells you decend to X in 5 seconds, so you just do it manually, not a huge deal.

I know its easier to say then do but I would also highly consider the GFC 500 at this point. Your panel is already going to be in a million pieces and the AP integration already needs to be re done. I would bite the bullet if you can and future proof your airplane with probably the best AP on the market for GA at this point. Go dual G5 or dual GI275, my preference is the G5 I think the 275 is a silly looking device with too much crammed onto it.

I enjoy how both sets are on your plane. Its also weird to me that the 275 and g5 are around the same size, yet somehow the g5 looks way less cramped. 

 

 

[dzeleski]

57 minutes ago, EricJ said:

That is a good side-by-side comparison of the two.   The G5 makes much better use of the space with the square display.    The GI-275 seems like a step backward to me in that regard.    Even if I were doing a new install I think I'd prefer G5s to the 275, although the MFD version as a CDI replacement is pretty attractive.
 

From what I understand its a crushed down G500. And the connector on the back is a massive dual 78 pin pain in the ass.

Dont get me wrong the 275 has some cool features I wish my G5 had, like entering a real minimum into the the display that is separate then the alt bug. I just could not and still can not get passed how cramped it looks. The AI line for the horizon is like a 1/4 of the size because its blocked off by all the crap around it. The attached photo shows the differences behind the same panel I linked above.

 

57 minutes ago, Mooney Dog said:

I enjoy how both sets are on your plane. Its also weird to me that the 275 and g5 are around the same size, yet somehow the g5 looks way less cramped. 

 

 

Just to be clear this is not my plane I yanked these from here: https://www.kitplanes.com/product-review-garmin-gi-275-efis/

My panel looks like this:

 

[Mooney Dog]

26 minutes ago, dzeleski said:

 

Just to be clear this is not my plane I yanked these from here: https://www.kitplanes.com/product-review-garmin-gi-275-efis/

 

Whoops. Well your actual airplane looks good as well, very similar to mine.

 

I notice a lot of people here like the IFD units. I have never used one personally but id love to hear your opinion vs the 650/750 units from garmin. I know yours is supposed to be a 430 replacement. Does it fit that bill just better? 

[dzeleski]

12 minutes ago, Mooney Dog said:

Whoops. Well your actual airplane looks good as well, very similar to mine.

 

I notice a lot of people here like the IFD units. I have never used one personally but id love to hear your opinion vs the 650/750 units from garmin. I know yours is supposed to be a 430 replacement. Does it fit that bill just better? 

I do well, I dont do 100k in screens well. My total cost for the way you see it is around 50k. It was a slide in replacement (traded in a non W 430) minus the WAAS antenna and cable. I personally do not like garmins menu system, its laid out horribly inefficient. Everything I can do in 1-2 clicks/touches takes double or more in a garmin system. I also do not like that garmin has gone full touch minus a knob. I know in theory you can do everything from that knob but lets be honest its tedious and insane IF the screen fails. In my case I really like having the physical buttons in significant turbulence and if by screen fails I still have physical buttons for everything.

On my IFD I can put my full expected approach, miss, and alternate into my FMS before I even take off. Unless something changed with garmins newer navs that is not possible. Which means I can take exactly what I planned in foreflight including fuel estimates and load that directly into the panel. Everything from planned to indicated matches up closer then without having all of that added from before take off.

[Mooney Dog]

3 minutes ago, dzeleski said:

I do well, I dont do 100k in screens well. My total cost for the way you see it is around 50k. It was a slide in replacement (traded in a non W 430) minus the WAAS antenna and cable. I personally do not like garmins menu system, its laid out horribly inefficient. Everything I can do in 1-2 clicks/touches takes double or more in a garmin system. I also do not like that garmin has gone full touch minus a knob. I know in theory you can do everything from that knob but lets be honest its tedious and insane IF the screen fails. In my case I really like having the physical buttons in significant turbulence and if by screen fails I still have physical buttons for everything.

On my IFD I can put my full expected approach, miss, and alternate into my FMS before I even take off. Unless something changed with garmins newer navs that is not possible. Which means I can take exactly what I planned in foreflight including fuel estimates and load that directly into the panel. Everything from planned to indicated matches up closer then without having all of that added from before take off.

So for reference i have a dual G5 GNX 375 / 255a nav/com set up in my plane. Ive gone full garmin since i need ADSB in/out when i got the plane. 

 

Everything i do is right off foreflight. I get into the plane, turn everything on, push a button on foreflight and the panel has my entire flight plan loaded up minus whatever approach im expecting, though i could load it if i wanted it. Im a big IFR pilot. Ive really got my head in the clouds. The pluses of the 375 for me are the fact I can edit anything on my ipad and the panel loads it automatically and vice versa. The built in bluetooth is very nice for that. I have not had any problem controlling the plane/fms in turbulence anymore than a 430 or the fms on the jet, though the physicals buttons are nice to have, i will admit. My dream set up for a plane way back when used to be some sort of HSI with dual 430w units though. Its changed a bit over the years but i still think the 430 is one of the best GPS units around.

 

I have a feeling had i not needed the ADSB transponder the 375 offered, i would have gone for the IFD system. It seems very similar to the 430. I hope i get the chance to play around with one some day. 

[ZuluZulu]

7 hours ago, dzeleski said:

I have Dual G5s (plus 4 servo GFC500) with a IFD 440, everything works just fine, and as said above it should work just fine with the GI275. I would HIGHLY recommend bringing it to a shop that has done this exact setup before though. The only thing that doesnt work with this setup is VNAV, but the IFD still tells you decend to X in 5 seconds, so you just do it manually, not a huge deal.

I know its easier to say then do but I would also highly consider the GFC 500 at this point. Your panel is already going to be in a million pieces and the AP integration already needs to be re done. I would bite the bullet if you can and future proof your airplane with probably the best AP on the market for GA at this point. Go dual G5 or dual GI275, my preference is the G5 I think the 275 is a silly looking device with too much crammed onto it.

If Garmin offered an Aspen Max-like G5 display swap to get the same resolution as the GI-275, I'd do it in a heartbeat.  Love the form of the G5, wish the screen was better, hate the form factor of the GI-275, love the screen quality.  I also think synthetic vision would look better on the G5 than it does on the GI-275.

[Will.iam]

I wish the G5 would drive my autopilot as my KFC-150 works even though it’s 35 years old and with all the people future proofing their autopilots now there is a source of used servos to keep me going for quite a while if one should fail. This forces me to the gi275 or G500 TXi for the same reason. 

[Seth]

On 10/2/2021 at 1:16 PM, Will.iam said:

I wish the G5 would drive my autopilot as my KFC-150 works even though it’s 35 years old and with all the people future proofing their autopilots now there is a source of used servos to keep me going for quite a while if one should fail. This forces me to the gi275 or G500 TXi for the same reason. 

Me too. I've been trying to figure out how to do one GI275 now and then either a second one later or a G500 with the GI 275 as the backup should I go all glass then.

Dual GI275's seem to me like an extra cost, but when you look at the hookups and items necessary to get GPSS working, dual GI275's start making more sense. Wish I could find a solution to a single GI 275 as I already have an electric lifesaver gyro as a backup to mi KI276.

Good luck determining your solution!

-Seth

[Will.iam]

My annual is finally done. I pushed the decision to next year’s annual as I didn’t have the money or time to do it this time around. Hopefully there will be more clarity by next year. Maybe dynon will finally get that AP approved?

[Bob Weber]

I would never mix manufacturers of systems that are software driven, ever.

I watched a talented engineering team battle for days to get them to work together just so I could fly and get them out the door.

Imagine being in ATL changing the database in one or the other while waiting on picking up a passenger and suddenly it stops working.

Next thing you know, a week later, they're pointing at each other for blame.

I can't think of two manufacturers that would be worse than avidyne and Garmin you could expect to peacefully coexist.

Lose the KI 256, by all means go with the 275, the "swiss army knife" and pick out a Garmin navigator.

You should start a piggy bank for your new GFC 500 that you will need next, I can keep a KFC 150 going for a while but it is inevitable you will need to replace it.

You will then be relying on a third manufacture's software.

Think of your end game.

[EricJ]

9 hours ago, Bob Weber said:

I would never mix manufacturers of systems that are software driven, ever.

As time progresses this becomes unavoidable.   Your "integrated" GPS navigator box likely contains multiple modules from different vendors, and each module likely has multiple libraries, from different vendors.   I doubt there exist many systems these days where all of the internal software was done in-house, and if they do they're operating very inefficiently and adding a lot of cost and development time to their product.

Except for companies that insist on proprietary protocols, which genuinely are the bane of the earth (e.g., Garmin), communication between boxes (or even modules within a box) usually happen over buses where the electrical and software protocols are standardized.    This facilitates functional intermodule/interbox/interwhatever communications independent of the manufacturer/brand/developer on either end.    You would be surprised how much of the world operates this way successfully every day, and I suspect you would be surprised how many instances of such standardized interfaces exist within a single "integrated" box with one brand name stamped on the face.

IMHO limiting options to a single "manufacturer" is an illusion at best.   We've seen a lot lately how even staying within one manufacturer, (again, Garmin), doesn't prevent some pretty awful integration errors and faults between systems from the same manufacturer.

Edited October 20, 2021 by EricJ

[jetdriven]

On 10/1/2021 at 11:11 AM, dzeleski said:

I have Dual G5s (plus 4 servo GFC500) with a IFD 440, everything works just fine, and as said above it should work just fine with the GI275. I would HIGHLY recommend bringing it to a shop that has done this exact setup before though. The only thing that doesnt work with this setup is VNAV, but the IFD still tells you decend to X in 5 seconds, so you just do it manually, not a huge deal.

I know its easier to say then do but I would also highly consider the GFC 500 at this point. Your panel is already going to be in a million pieces and the AP integration already needs to be re done. I would bite the bullet if you can and future proof your airplane with probably the best AP on the market for GA at this point. Go dual G5 or dual GI275, my preference is the G5 I think the 275 is a silly looking device with too much crammed onto it.

Do you have the flight director? You already mentioned no VNAV. Which is huge. 

[dzeleski]

1 hour ago, jetdriven said:

Do you have the flight director? You already mentioned no VNAV. Which is huge. 

Yep everything works including the FD, besides VNAV. Honestly it’s really not that big of a deal. Is it nice to have? Sure but for me it’s not a problem.

 

Avidyne is apparently trying to add VNAV support but it’s been awhile since any updates were posted about that. The VNAV flags are Garmin specific (shocking I know) and they have to reverse engineer it. Since it was never supported on the 430/530 it may also just not be possible.

[Bob Weber]

Think of the luxury of making one phone call and asking what is wrong, demanding an answer, rather than multiple calls that tend to point at each other.....