Time to plan for engine overhaul, replacement, STC...

[PMcClure]

Been flying a lot lately and I am approaching TBO sooner than I expected. I will probably reach 2000 hours by end of 2022 at this rate. 51K is a 2002 Ovation 2 with the original IO550.  Top overhaul was done about 350 hours ago. I already have the 3 blade prop, but not sure it is the right part number for the STC to upgrade to the 300hp version. 

How to I go about buying the STC? How long should I budget for lead-time on all the components to arrive and downtime for install? Does the G3X change anything? Just a software update to change the max RPM?

I will go factory reman or new on the IO550. Even though the current engine runs great, I do not plan to run it much past TBO. Do I replace it with the IO-550N? Anyone done this recently that can give me some pointers?

Paul 

[FlyWalt]

Please explain to me the motivation behind doing an overhaul. You just did a top overhaul only 350 hours ago. Is there a problem with the bottom end? Burning oil? Low compressions after 350 STOH? I am really curious.

[PMcClure]

8 minutes ago, FlyWalt said:

Please explain to me the motivation behind doing an overhaul. You just did a top overhaul only 350 hours ago. Is there a problem with the bottom end? Burning oil? Low compressions after 350 STOH? I am really curious.

It's really a personal choice. I am well aware that you can fly past TBO and the current engine is in perfect running order. Several factors in the decision, not the smallest being liability and another being the upgrade path. And I also prefer not to have that part of the discussion online. Thank you for your input. 

[ilovecornfields]

You can purchase the STC from any MSC. It is somewhere around $5000. They can let you know which props are compatible. If I recall, the only new “part” if you already have the prop is a spring for the prop governor which just takes a few hours to replace.

Anecdotally, IO-550-N seems to be more susceptible to cylinder head cracks than the IO-550-G. The only person I have heard of making the switch was Anthony, the grandfather of Mooneyspace, so perhaps he can comment on it.

[PilotX]

Liability?

[LANCECASPER]

8 hours ago, PilotX said:

Liability?

You must have missed the next sentence: "And I also prefer not to have that part of the discussion online."

[PilotX]

43 minutes ago, LANCECASPER said:

You must have missed the next sentence: "And I also prefer not to have that part of the discussion online."

I’m certain he’s not the only person that feels that way and often times others are able to explain big words using littler words for a dummy like me.

[kortopates]

1 hour ago, PilotX said:

I’m certain he’s not the only person that feels that way and often times others are able to explain big words using littler words for a dummy like me.

But its agmonst the topics Mooneyspacers can go on endlessly - probably becuause its not at all easy to separate emotions from data/reality. Ought oh..... But if this does interest you Mike Busch's first short book was exactly on this topic - Manifesto. A very quick read.

[carusoam]

My experience…

1) I wanted to go way beyond TBO with my IO550 because I was confident that it could…

2) one day in 2012, I was out of town, while my plane was tied down outdoors at my home drome…. Ground strike.

3) Only 1600 hours on the tach, short of my goal… facing the minimum of a tear down… and R&R…

4) Having difficulty with memory that year… Project Engineering was going to be really difficult…

5) Fortunately, I had MS, and logic on my side…

6) My guide was MSer @Cris who had a Screemin’ Eagle.  An awesome example of 310hp in a long body… the 310hp is visceral… you feel it!  You don’t have to wonder if it is working…

7) Cris was also a MAPA CFII…

8) Check to see if you have a Hartzell TopProp… you probably do…

9) One STC is required, available through Mooney and the MSC network…

10) A tach update to handle the extra 200rpm, I kept the original tach and updated its operation…

11) I went with a few options to lighten the weight on the nose…

12) The (N) cylinders are a modern newer version of the (G) cylinders…  and a few pounds lighter each…

13) The Acclaim prop, has the thinner lightweight blades… more pounds saved, faster… fewer OHs in the blade’s future

14) Cylinder cracks have been reported by N cylinder owners on brand Ci… ask @M20Doc

15) Speak with the writer of the 310hp STC… he doesn’t mind having the conversation…. And there is a ton of history to this great engine…

16) Since then my memory has greatly improved… but when it comes to all the details… go to @StevenL757

17) Some B in the WnB equation needs to be watched closely… depending on what else you have in the trunk… I added a couple of pounds of lead in the form of taller heavier batteries… (because the Hartzell weighs so much)

18) Unfortunately Cris is no longer with… he was great at knowing everyone at the Continental factory…. I chose Factory Reman.  What was tough was going the parts bin route when  my first run IO550 came with the plane…

19) Holy cow… the 310hp is worth it!  It’s value shines as the runways get shorter…

20) Lead times back then… FR engine was a couple of weeks, most of it is on the shelf, needing finishing to order… the prop takes the longest, about two months… consider composite construction to avoid the B challenges… engine mount OH and Tach updates were done while the engine were off…

21) Start planning the break-in flights… I opted to bring somebody along with me… high power, low altitude, changing rpm on schedule… I brought a few people along on various flights.  The first hours were done by my mechanical staff at 39N, Long flights with Cris, John Pallante, and Byron @jetdriven…

22) Read up on setting the FF for the max possible, and then some…

23) If getting a new Hartzell prop…. Get the right diameter spinner… mine is still a quarter inch short and mocks me when I walk by… every pre-flight…  there was supposed to be an update coming from Hartzell…. Then more years passed…

My memory has improved a ton since those days…   

PP thoughts only… wish Cris could be here.  Hope I supplied some help based on what Cris and the other MSers showed me… 

Go MS!

Best regards,

-a-

[Guillaume]

Just wanted to point that calendar TBO on a TCM / Lycoming engine is 12 years (regardless of flight hours). 

It seems that you have been running the engine beyond TBO for quite some time. 

[Hank]

1 hour ago, Guillaume said:

Just wanted to point that calendar TBO on a TCM / Lycoming engine is 12 years (regardless of flight hours). 

It seems that you have been running the engine beyond TBO for quite some time. 

Just like the 2000 hours, the 12 year time frame is simply advisory for Part 91 in the U.S., and is pretty much ignored by everyone. Lycoming and Continental do have calendar age limits on trading in engines, that's about the only "age" ever mentioned for an engine. 

[Guillaume]

20 minutes ago, Hank said:

Just like the 2000 hours, the 12 year time frame is simply advisory for Part 91 in the U.S., and is pretty much ignored by everyone. Lycoming and Continental do have calendar age limits on trading in engines, that's about the only "age" ever mentioned for an engine. 

My post was not very clear.

I understood that the OP had liability concerns regarding operating an engine beyond TBO. I just wanted to point out that he was already doing so.

In europe, regulations are now the same : aircraft owners may choose to deviate from TCH recommended TBO for non-commercial ops.

Edited July 28, 2021 by Guillaume

[StevenL757]

On 7/27/2021 at 11:32 AM, PMcClure said:

Been flying a lot lately and I am approaching TBO sooner than I expected. I will probably reach 2000 hours by end of 2022 at this rate. 51K is a 2002 Ovation 2 with the original IO550.  Top overhaul was done about 350 hours ago. I already have the 3 blade prop, but not sure it is the right part number for the STC to upgrade to the 300hp version. 

How to I go about buying the STC? How long should I budget for lead-time on all the components to arrive and downtime for install? Does the G3X change anything? Just a software update to change the max RPM?

I will go factory reman or new on the IO550. Even though the current engine runs great, I do not plan to run it much past TBO. Do I replace it with the IO-550N? Anyone done this recently that can give me some pointers?

Paul 

 

On 7/27/2021 at 12:30 PM, ilovecornfields said:

You can purchase the STC from any MSC. It is somewhere around $5000. They can let you know which props are compatible. If I recall, the only new “part” if you already have the prop is a spring for the prop governor which just takes a few hours to replace.

Anecdotally, IO-550-N seems to be more susceptible to cylinder head cracks than the IO-550-G. The only person I have heard of making the switch was Anthony, the grandfather of Mooneyspace, so perhaps he can comment on it.

For @PMcClure:  Paul - get ahold of AirPower and have them get you a quote on the IO550N.  I can get a contact for you if you need one.  As @ilovecornfields stated, you'll need to purchase the STC allowing you to convert to the 310HP STC.  You'll need a T20 upgrade on your C290D3 governor to allow it to run the engine at 2700RPM, and I suggest you let whomever performs the upgrade also inspect (at a minimum) and overhaul the governor, if necessary, in the process.  Given your serial number, they'll likely replace a couple of vulnerable plastic parts with newer metal ones as part of the OH.  Mine was done 818 hours ago with my factory reman "N", and everything has run perfectly since it was installed in 2014.  My only Engine log entries since the engine was replaced have been oil changes and annual inspections.

Without trying to spend your money, you won't regret the 310HP upgrade.  I can tell you - without reservation - the difference is dramatic...in takeoff, climb, and cruise performance.  Here's a few pointers...

• The "G" new and reman engines are actually priced a small bit (around $500'ish) higher than the "N".  For what reason, I have no clue.
• Do your oil changes at 25-35 hours/3 to 4 month intervals, run it at 2550RPM in climb (above 1000' AGL) and cruise, have iridium fine wire plugs installed from the very beginning, and you'll make it past TBO.
• You'll want either a Factory Reman or Factory New IO550 N39B (given you have air conditioning).  Each option will come with a "0" time logbook.
• Lead times right now from Continental are 12-14 weeks, but could run a bit longer depending on type of engine
• AirPower, Inc. is quoting another 7-14 days to get a full price from Continental, but at last-look, the Factory Reman option was right around $54,000.  Factory New was just south of $59k.  Shipping to your area of the world from CAT is "about" $290.

PM if you want, and we can chat about the experience.

Steve

[MIm20c]

Without a doubt get a reman or new.  Keep flying the plane until you get the shipping notification.  Life’s too short to mess around with a shop for months on end.

[PMcClure]

Thank you everyone for the input, this is a late 2022 project. Just starting the planning now. I guess I asked for the 2nd guessing about replacing a perfectly running engine by stating the hours and top overhaul. But the decision is a deeply personal calculation. For everyone that thinks a well maintained experienced engine is just as good or better than a brand new one, I will happily sell you mine for the price of a new one, just PM me!  My background is maintenance and engineering and have built several engines by hand and currently maintain at least a dozen personal engines myself. Clearly, invasive maintenance is a concern and leaving well enough alone is usually the best strategy. There are reasons TCM puts service limits on their equipment. And one reason is to limit liability. Of course it is up to us civilians  if we want to follow the recommendations for hire operations as we have no legal requirement to do so. For many people, flying past TBO is safe and I don't argue with them. But as I say, the decision is personal and up to me since it is me and my family and friends on board.  And I would rather plan my downtime and maintenance than not.

Steve - Thank you very much for the input. I will contact Airpower and get a quote and give you call about your experience sometime soon. Really appreciate yours and everyone's experience. 

[StevenL757]

1 hour ago, PMcClure said:

Steve - Thank you very much for the input. I will contact Airpower and get a quote and give you call about your experience sometime soon. Really appreciate yours and everyone's experience. 

You're welcome.  I'll PM you my contact at AP.  Had a chat with her earlier today, so she's practically expecting your call.   ;-)

[carusoam]

From the less than useful department…

TCM has also increased the TBO for some engines around 2012 or so…

That brought TBO out to about 2200hrs… (?)

Then they gave the guidance of what was required to get that far…

Fly frequently, change oil often… etc…

Essentially you would have to fly everyday, and not go to work….  

If interested look up their current TBO policy for the engine…

It may make you feel a bit better about running towards TBO, in case you get there sooner than expected…

Best regards,

-a-

[MIm20c]

Not trying to be a doom and gloom guy here but with the way things are going up in price these days I’d lock in a price before they bump it again. It wouldn’t surprise me if a 15-20% jump in price in the next year or two. 

[PMcClure]

7 hours ago, carusoam said:

From the less than useful department…

TCM has also increased the TBO for some engines around 2012 or so…

That brought TBO out to about 2200hrs… (?)

Then they gave the guidance of what was required to get that far…

Fly frequently, change oil often… etc…

Essentially you would have to fly everyday, and not go to work….  

If interested look up their current TBO policy for the engine…

It may make you feel a bit better about running towards TBO, in case you get there sooner than expected…

Best regards,

-a-

1. If an engine consistently accumulates 40 or more hours per month since being placed in service, add 200 hours to recom- mended TBO.

2. Engines with Serial Number 1006000 or higher, add 200 hours to TBO as noted in table above.

For my next engine, I plan to quit my day job to save money on the rebuild. But then I need a night job to pay for my fuel. 

TBO Page SIL98-9C.pdf

[PMcClure]

5 hours ago, MIm20c said:

Not trying to be a doom and gloom guy here but with the way things are going up in price these days I’d lock in a price before they bump it again. It wouldn’t surprise me if a 15-20% jump in price in the next year or two. 

I wish I could laugh at this, but it is real. 15-40% price increases coming through our business now for aluminum and steel. And the mills tell you if you don't like it, they will remove you from the forecast and no metal for you. 

[flyboy0681]

16 minutes ago, PMcClure said:

I wish I could laugh at this, but it is real. 15-40% price increases coming through our business now for aluminum and steel. And the mills tell you if you don't like it, they will remove you from the forecast and no metal for you. 

Thus far the president hasn't removed the steel and aluminum tariffs. I'm sure that could help the situation.