How do you Take Advantage of Speed Brakes on Approaches?

[M20F-1968]

1 minute ago, kortopates said:

I understand more power for speed brakes. But this would make more sense on the visual portion of the approach before the flare, but why does it matter inbound from the FAF? The plane doesn't feel the x-wind tracking on approach from FAF till breaking out or at minimums cause the nose is crabbed into the wind by whatever amount is necessary. Only after you commence the visual portion and at somepoint before or at the flare will you eliminate the crab and to land. If I understand you, one could extend brakes with power once the landing was assured - assuming that's your preferred x-wind landing technique. (I do know pilots that prefer to use speed brakes on normal landings)

Mooney's were certified without speed brakes so its my understanding the factory did no testing. Testing was done by Precise for their STC limitations covered in their AFMS - which does allow landing with them and all the way up to Vne.

I guess I wasn't as precise in my explanation as I could have been.  I am not holding to speed brakes from the FAF, but rather I am suggesting they be used long enough for a stabilized approach with the speed brakes.  I am not suggesting that they be extended late and close to the ground.  (Although I extended them once at about 400 feet coming into Manchester NH in 2019 when there were significant winds and I didn't want to get blown around.)

I am not a crab and kick the rudder at the last moment, but rather I prefer to cross control enough of the approach so I am comfortable with what I have to do to stabilize the approach for the winds encountered.

John Breda

[kortopates]

6 minutes ago, M20F-1968 said:

I guess I wasn't as precise in my explanation as I could have been.  I am not holding to speed brakes from the FAF, but rather I am suggesting they be used long enough for a stabilized approach with the speed brakes.  I am not suggesting that they be extended late and close to the ground.  (Although I extended them once at about 400 feet coming into Manchester NH in 2019 when there were significant winds and I didn't want to get blown around.)

I am not a crab and kick the rudder at the last moment, but rather I prefer to cross control enough of the approach so I am comfortable with what I have to do to stabilize the approach for the winds encountered.

John Breda

I think I understand you now and understand you want the plane configured and set up cross controlled quite ways up before the flare, or maybe you extend the brakes and get the power where you want and add cross controls closer to the runway so you can take the crab out and center the nose.

I am not passing judgement on any of it. We teach our private students to put in the cross controls at a couple hundred feet - but the higher the starting alt,  the stronger winds are and more cross controlled the plane needs to be to elimiante drift. In fact with a strong cross wind one can easily run out of drift correction which is why keeping the crab till near the flare allows controlling the drift with stronger cross winds. 

There is truth too in more power adding stability with more thrust or prop wash over the rudder - you can see this by pulling the power back to idle a bit before the flare with a good x-wind and seeing the nose weather vane right away - even though its a relatively small power change. 

But if you have the runway, adding a bit more power with a bit more airspeed with about 1/2 flaps is another way to handle larger x-winds.

A constant wind magnitude though is much easier to deal with as compared to a gusty x-wind - I can reach my x-wind limit much earlier with a very gusty wind as opposed to constant x-wind.  

[M20F-1968]

4 hours ago, kortopates said:

I think I understand you now and understand you want the plane configured and set up cross controlled quite ways up before the flare, or maybe you extend the brakes and get the power where you want and add cross controls closer to the runway so you can take the crab out and center the nose.

I am not passing judgement on any of it. We teach our private students to put in the cross controls at a couple hundred feet - but the higher the starting alt,  the stronger winds are and more cross controlled the plane needs to be to elimiante drift. In fact with a strong cross wind one can easily run out of drift correction which is why keeping the crab till near the flare allows controlling the drift with stronger cross winds. 

There is truth too in more power adding stability with more thrust or prop wash over the rudder - you can see this by pulling the power back to idle a bit before the flare with a good x-wind and seeing the nose weather vane right away - even though its a relatively small power change. 

But if you have the runway, adding a bit more power with a bit more airspeed with about 1/2 flaps is another way to handle larger x-winds.

A constant wind magnitude though is much easier to deal with as compared to a gusty x-wind - I can reach my x-wind limit much earlier with a very gusty wind as opposed to constant x-wind.  

I have only used the speed brakes this way perhaps ten times, a couple were without realizing they were out, but I think I am correct in saying that the landings have been consistently good.  I have not used less than full flaps very often as I want to minimize float and perhaps should spend more time with 1/2 flaps.  I am always trying to get the most control without the speed brakes and there is validity to what you say.  However, do you see any problem with using the speed brakes in this way and should I keep this approach to landing as a viable alternative when warranted?  The obvious liability is the loss of lift in a go around.

John Breda

[Niko182]

Might not make a mojor difference since you realistically don't fly in or near ice id guess, however if youre in IMC on an approach into IMC close to Freezing levels, make sure to avoid using speed brakes. They get stuck in the out position because they freeze. Ive had mine freeze up actually even without visible moisture. Just an FYI.