aviatoreb Posted June 22, 2021 Author Report Posted June 22, 2021 1 hour ago, jaylw314 said: Usually on AirNav they list the phone number for the airport manager? FWIW, I lost a fuel cap last year I talked to the airport manager and FBO but they hadn't seen it, so I ordered a new one. I week later, they called and said they found it off the runway, so sometimes it turns up later. I am so happy I am not the only one who lost a cap - I mean not that I am happy you lost your cap - but I am currently feeling like such a yutz for loosing my cap and well there is misery loves company. 1 Quote
EricJ Posted June 22, 2021 Report Posted June 22, 2021 6 minutes ago, aviatoreb said: I am so happy I am not the only one who lost a cap - I mean not that I am happy you lost your cap - but I am currently feeling like such a yutz for loosing my cap and well there is misery loves company. Been done many times. For people with Cherokees/Arrows/etc., the fuel cap from a Harbor Freight generator may fit in a pinch. 2 Quote
Seymour Posted June 23, 2021 Report Posted June 23, 2021 Flying into your smallsville KPTD this week so let me know if you want help scouring the area. 1 Quote
carusoam Posted June 23, 2021 Report Posted June 23, 2021 For some reason… I have a couple of traditions to avoid this from happening again… My M20C had no leashes…. Because I was afeared of having them banging around on the wing… Let that fear go… at 60kias… the boundary layer is much thinner than the fuel cap dimensions… that cap will be pressed hard against the wing’s surface, held in place by the leash, until you stop flying… Mooney leashes aren’t very long… just barely long enough to get out of the way of the fuel nozzle… Tradition one… Only PIC closes the caps… Caps not in place… means I forgot to check the level and sump the tanks… Tradition two… caps only go from closed to open and set on the wing… any place else… leads to not sumping the tank… Tradition three… got those fancy speed brakes… while checking their presence during the pre-flight where all controls are free and correct… the caps have a nice surface finish that doesn’t stand out like a black hole… Tradition four… caps never get put in place without being locked down… similar to Locked doors, they are fully open or fully closed… that half done step leads to things opening in flight… Tradition five… important things go in front of the PIC on the cowl… if something has to be put down… put it there… you get one more chance to see it… I don’t remember losing a cap… but, I probably struggled with the idea of leaving it on the fuel pump… I had so much concern about my paint… yet never bought it the silicone mat that it deserves… The Pi Plane has fancy paint… did it get the silicone mat to protect it from the metal fuel cap’s random placement during fueling? Rubber fuel cap leashes have a life expectancy of about 15 years… OSUaviator used of have them for sale… The metal chains had some lightning concern… allowing electricity to be ducted towards the fuel… Fuzzy PP memories shared… Memory is a two part processes… putting what you did as it happens into memory…. Then recalling the details afterwards when you need it… I bet that memory is in its place, nicely organized… waiting for some part of this discussion to free it up… like suddenly remembering having it in your hands while getting or connecting the ground wire to the plane… PP thoughts only, not a memory specialist… Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
PeteMc Posted June 23, 2021 Report Posted June 23, 2021 Similar to your putting things in front of you on the cowl, I put them on the wing-walk (usually in front of the door). If it's on the wing-walk (in theory) I will see it when I look to step up and have another option when I have to cross over it. And nothing is every placed up against the plane, it's always out in the middle of the wing-walk. Luckily my caps do have a leash. But even so, my tradition is to check the cap on the pilot side and then sump. Move to the other wing and check the cap, then sump. 2 Quote
rbridges Posted June 23, 2021 Report Posted June 23, 2021 Don't feel bad. I did the same thing. Forgot to latch the fuel cap and it came off during take off. Airport found it a few days later. The guys at the airport where I landed rigged a tape/sheet metal cover to get me back home. 2 Quote
aviatoreb Posted June 23, 2021 Author Report Posted June 23, 2021 12 hours ago, carusoam said: For some reason… I have a couple of traditions to avoid this from happening again… My M20C had no leashes…. Because I was afeared of having them banging around on the wing… Let that fear go… at 60kias… the boundary layer is much thinner than the fuel cap dimensions… that cap will be pressed hard against the wing’s surface, held in place by the leash, until you stop flying… Mooney leashes aren’t very long… just barely long enough to get out of the way of the fuel nozzle… Tradition one… Only PIC closes the caps… Caps not in place… means I forgot to check the level and sump the tanks… Tradition two… caps only go from closed to open and set on the wing… any place else… leads to not sumping the tank… I wonder if that is right. You know that it doesn't necessarily take turbulence to make something in the wind bounce. Even in smooth air something can "flutter". Flutter is the onset of bouncing (limit cycle) oscillation under increasing air speed and technically it is called a Hopf bifurcation that causes oscillations in a wide range of scientific applications from disease mathematical epidemiology, to aeronautical, chemical, electrical and civil engineering settings. Or maybe you are saying the airflow is stationary at the level of the caps because it is truly in the still air boundary layer? I don't know! I just wish I had leashes. In part because those caps I take off are slippery and the wing is slippery so I can't just put it down. Anyway as I said for now on I will put it down on the tks window spritzer if it is not in my hand. BTW I do the sump - check fuel and also check oil as the first steps of the preflight. Then I do the rest of the pre-flight as a step by step walk around the airplane. 1 Quote
aviatoreb Posted June 23, 2021 Author Report Posted June 23, 2021 Check out this company in china selling knock-offs of various sizes - if there is one that is the right size I might get it to keep as a back up just in case I loose one again on the road somewhere. Or maybe I will just buy another one from spruce for the same reason instead - which is probably what I should do. The mail order one from spruce arrives friday. I am still hoping my original shows up at some point -' in the grass at the airport? Maybe when the next time they mow the grass? They know I am looking. Quote
aviatoreb Posted June 23, 2021 Author Report Posted June 23, 2021 38 minutes ago, rbridges said: Don't feel bad. I did the same thing. Forgot to latch the fuel cap and it came off during take off. Airport found it a few days later. The guys at the airport where I landed rigged a tape/sheet metal cover to get me back home. Thanks. Quote
aviatoreb Posted June 23, 2021 Author Report Posted June 23, 2021 1 hour ago, PeteMc said: Similar to your putting things in front of you on the cowl, I put them on the wing-walk (usually in front of the door). If it's on the wing-walk (in theory) I will see it when I look to step up and have another option when I have to cross over it. And nothing is every placed up against the plane, it's always out in the middle of the wing-walk. Luckily my caps do have a leash. But even so, my tradition is to check the cap on the pilot side and then sump. Move to the other wing and check the cap, then sump. It was during filling I think i lost it if I lost it then. And it it was when I think it was - it was following a flight right before I put it away. There was a new fellow at the airport who had just moved in with his airplane to hangar 3 and I am in hangar 5 so I beckoned hello neighbor! And the fuel depot is right in ear shot and view of our hangars. So that probably broke my flow as we chatted for a while and I welcomed him. E Quote
jaylw314 Posted June 23, 2021 Report Posted June 23, 2021 28 minutes ago, aviatoreb said: I wonder if that is right. You know that it doesn't necessarily take turbulence to make something in the wind bounce. Even in smooth air something can "flutter". Flutter is the onset of bouncing (limit cycle) oscillation under increasing air speed and technically it is called a Hopf bifurcation that causes oscillations in a wide range of scientific applications from disease mathematical epidemiology, to aeronautical, chemical, electrical and civil engineering settings. Or maybe you are saying the airflow is stationary at the level of the caps because it is truly in the still air boundary layer? I don't know! I just wish I had leashes. In part because those caps I take off are slippery and the wing is slippery so I can't just put it down. Anyway as I said for now on I will put it down on the tks window spritzer if it is not in my hand. BTW I do the sump - check fuel and also check oil as the first steps of the preflight. Then I do the rest of the pre-flight as a step by step walk around the airplane. I don't think it takes anything that complicated if your cap is unlatched. the moment you rotate, the area above the fuel cap gets low pressure, but the tank is still vented, so it probably pops off like a potato gun. FWIW, I'm fairly certain I put the cap in but forgot to latch it, and I didn't notice any dents or scratches aft of it when it came out 1 Quote
aviatoreb Posted June 23, 2021 Author Report Posted June 23, 2021 3 hours ago, jaylw314 said: I don't think it takes anything that complicated if your cap is unlatched. the moment you rotate, the area above the fuel cap gets low pressure, but the tank is still vented, so it probably pops off like a potato gun. FWIW, I'm fairly certain I put the cap in but forgot to latch it, and I didn't notice any dents or scratches aft of it when it came out I bet you are right about the pressure popping it off! I was speaking theoretically of Anthony's comment regarding if a lashed cap would bang relentlessly against the wing causing damage, or just get pressed down harmlessly. Quote
PT20J Posted June 23, 2021 Report Posted June 23, 2021 AD 97-26-08 required removing lanyards on F, J and L models to prevent entanglement with outboard fuel gauge float and causing erroneously high fuel level indications. Not sure why it doesn’t apply to other models. It could be that other models never had lanyards installed at the factory, or maybe the float isn’t near the opening on other models. Skip 1 Quote
aviatoreb Posted June 23, 2021 Author Report Posted June 23, 2021 14 minutes ago, PT20J said: AD 97-26-08 required removing lanyards on F, J and L models to prevent entanglement with outboard fuel gauge float and causing erroneously high fuel level indications. Not sure why it doesn’t apply to other models. It could be that other models never had lanyards installed at the factory, or maybe the float isn’t near the opening on other models. Skip I have lanyards on my mains which are shaw caps I think, and it looks as if they may have come that way from the factory - I don't know. It seems impossible to interfere with the floats since the mains cap neck has a door that lies flat and the lanyards are above the door. I am not sure if I explained that in an understandable way. 1 Quote
EricJ Posted June 23, 2021 Report Posted June 23, 2021 1 hour ago, PT20J said: AD 97-26-08 required removing lanyards on F, J and L models to prevent entanglement with outboard fuel gauge float and causing erroneously high fuel level indications. Not sure why it doesn’t apply to other models. It could be that other models never had lanyards installed at the factory, or maybe the float isn’t near the opening on other models. Skip The older models don't have an outboard float/sender due to the smaller tanks, so it wouldn't be an issue with them. Not sure why it didn't apply to K's, though... 1 Quote
aviatoreb Posted June 23, 2021 Author Report Posted June 23, 2021 1 minute ago, EricJ said: The older models don't have an outboard float/sender due to the smaller tanks, so it wouldn't be an issue with them. Not sure why it didn't apply to K's, though... As I said, I don't see how it would be possible for a lanyard to interfere with anything inside the tank since there is an inner door under neath the cap and above the actual tank - that door is on a flap that pushes aside when you put the fuel depot filler into it. Quote
EricJ Posted June 23, 2021 Report Posted June 23, 2021 10 minutes ago, aviatoreb said: As I said, I don't see how it would be possible for a lanyard to interfere with anything inside the tank since there is an inner door under neath the cap and above the actual tank - that door is on a flap that pushes aside when you put the fuel depot filler into it. That's probably why the AD doesn't apply to K models, then. 2 Quote
kortopates Posted June 23, 2021 Report Posted June 23, 2021 2 hours ago, PT20J said: AD 97-26-08 required removing lanyards on F, J and L models to prevent entanglement with outboard fuel gauge float and causing erroneously high fuel level indications. Not sure why it doesn’t apply to other models. It could be that other models never had lanyards installed at the factory, or maybe the float isn’t near the opening on other models. Skip Can't you see your fuel gauge float right next to the inlet in your J? I can almost touch it with the fuel pump nozzle if not careful. This assumes you gave the external on wings fuel gauges. In the K's, the inlet is further away and not a factor. I don't know if the anti-siphon valve cap is really a factor in preventing the chain from getting tangled if the fuel float was as close as it is the J models. 2 Quote
carusoam Posted June 24, 2021 Report Posted June 24, 2021 The original chain style leashes are very long compared to the polymer ones… As far as my description of aerodynamics and cap escape go… I missed a detail… so, erase that statement… Some refreshed thoughts… two scenarios… 1) Cap left on the wing… Strong wind speed, bumps, centrifugal force… could all send the cap towards the ground… 2) Cap left in the hole not latched… will easily stay in place until rotation… Keep in mind… the tank is vented on the underside of the wing… (high pressure) The cap is Part of the top of the wing… (low pressure) The moment lift starts being created… air flows from one side of the wing out the open cap side… hard to say if it is potato gun strong at ejecting the cap… But, it surely won’t stay in place with good seals helping to push it out… I have witnessed the air moving from beneath the wing escaping through the cap’s seals… on a rainy day… wish I took a video of that… The aerodynamics of the cap itself may add to the interest level of the discussion… It’s such an odd shape I assumed it had aerodynamics of a rock. Probably would need to tether it to the front of the firebird hood to experiment and see if it would bounce around or just be pulled tight… So… if looking for the old cap…. It may help to let people know where rotation occurred, expect that a cap that is going 65kias… when it gets liberated… Not only will it be hard to find… but, it might not be very healthy after it landed…and came to a stop. PP thoughts only… hoping the grounds crew gets an eye on it… Best regards, -a- 1 Quote
Seymour Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 I scoured the field from the air today, but no luck locating the cap. However, I did have the great fortune of meeting @aviatoreb in person. (Thanks for travelling out to meet me!) Looking for the cap on Base to Final at KPTD: Base2FinalKPTD.jfif 1 Quote
aviatoreb Posted June 25, 2021 Author Report Posted June 25, 2021 6 minutes ago, Seymour said: I scoured the field from the air today, but no luck locating the cap. However, I did have the great fortune of meeting @aviatoreb in person. (Thanks for travelling out to meet me!) Looking for the cap on Base to Final at KPTD: Base2FinalKPTD.jfif 147.6 kB · 1 download And it was lovely meeting you! Not often one of you good folks from Mooney space comes all the way to lil' ol' KPTD. Seymour is a very special mooneyspacer - he is a graduate from the same institution where I teach! Nice! Well there is a reason you didn't see it - .... turns out - its been FOUND! I found out this evening that it was found - near the runway? By the lawn mowers? I will get the whole story tomorrow when I retrieve it. Its most surely mine unless - hoping some other poor sod didn't also loose their cap at KPTD recently and its the wrong one? So now I will have two, the one I just bought to replace, and the old one, so I will keep a spare in my oil-n-stuff kit in the baggage compartment just in case for on the road. Oh and through searching for a salvage cap, which I didn't find I did end up finding a tks wing (with no caps) and I bought a tks stall strip from it for 10 cents on the dollar vs prices new. So I will keep that also for just in case since those pesky things can fall off - and did for me once about 5 years ago over lake Michigan....no one ever found that one for me - kerplunk! From FL17. So all is good! 5 1 Quote
Eight8Victor Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 Now you can change the title of this thread to “I found my cap!” Everyone loves a happy ending. 1 Quote
aviatoreb Posted June 25, 2021 Author Report Posted June 25, 2021 12 minutes ago, Eight8Victor said: Now you can change the title of this thread to “I found my cap!” Everyone loves a happy ending. Good idea - I will do that tomorrow - assuming the found cap is my cap.... Quote
Shadrach Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 On 6/23/2021 at 5:54 PM, EricJ said: The older models don't have an outboard float/sender due to the smaller tanks, so it wouldn't be an issue with them. Not sure why it didn't apply to K's, though... That’s the first time anyone has implied that my 53 yr old airplane is newer… 1 Quote
kmyfm20s Posted June 25, 2021 Report Posted June 25, 2021 My Ex-wife drove off with the fuel nozzle still attached to the car at the gas station not once, not twice but three times. Don’t be the 3 time person:) 1 Quote
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