Starter is starting to give me problems

[flyingchump]

Doing some work at the hanger today and thought I'd take a few laps around the pattern.  Pull the plane out, preflight, startup checklist, CLEAR, click...  Nothing but a single click.  Try again, just 1 click...  O boy...  And just to be clear, the starter did nothing.  It didn't turn slowly or even try to turn.  Just motionless.

The starter solenoid is making the click.  Not a low voltage/amperage clicking.  Just a normal powerful thud from the solenoid.  

Out comes the volt meter. 

Battery voltage - good, 12.4v

Voltage at solenoid - good, 12.4v (with the starter engaged)

Voltage at starter -  good, 12.4v (with the starter engaged)

So I employ the old farmers trick.  Tap it with a hammer once (the electric motor, not the Bendix).  Tried starting and nothing but just a click again.  Then used the hammer to tap the starter lightly in various places and voila!  She cranks!  I then proceeded to run the engine for a few minutes, shut down, and restart 5 times with no issues.  It cranks at normal speed and starts as normal 5 times which tells me its not the battery, wiring, solenoid, or grounds.  Btw, the ignition switch was upgraded from the push to start switch to the normal turn to start switch and its the old "original" type starter.  P/N MZ4222R

Any ideas what would cause this?  Thankfully this happened at home base and not hundreds of miles away.  These starters are basically tractor starters from what I've been told.  Can I have it rebuilt at my local aerospace tractor repair station?

 

[Jim Peace]

is this one of the heavy original starters?

[Wes]

If it's the original prestolite starter, the bendix gets gummed up. Sea Foam makes a lubricant that also cleans....works well. The best solution is to replace it with a sky tech lightweight starter. 

[RLCarter]

Tapping generally frees up stuck brushes, as the brushes wear the produce dust, this causes the the brush to stick and not make contact....  

[carusoam]

Whacking the starter...

indication of the starter getting old...

dead spots get temporarily fixed by a hammer whack...

if it is old...  clean and OH... or replace...

if it is new... clean...

PP Thoughts only  not a mechanic...

-a-

[mike_elliott]

This is probably the only area on an older Mooney percussion maintenance works, unlike a Cirrus where it is appropriate just about anyplace. Keep in mind this cures the effect and not the cause. In the case of Cirrus, well....

 

[EricJ]

Yes, the local tractor aerospace motor shop could likely rehabilitate it to essentially overhauled condition.

As mentioned, it may have sticky/broken brushes or a dead spot on the armature, both of which may not reappear again for a while until the conditions are repeated, and both of which would likely be remedied by a trip to the electric motor shop.

I wouldn't just leave it along, though, as it'll probably do it again eventually.
 

[Yetti]

I vote brushes on the tractor starter if the tractor starter trick made it better.

[Jim Peace]

replace with new skytech and sealed concord battery.....can use the starter to taxi....

[flyingchump]

2 hours ago, Jim Peace said:

is this one of the heavy original starters?

Yup.  Original prestolite. 

[EricJ]

1 hour ago, flyingchump said:

Yup.  Original prestolite. 

Could be an opportunity for a SkyTec or a B&C.  Less weight, more efficient, the only real downside is the $$.

 

[kerry]

I would clean the cable and contacts between the starter and solenoid.  They might be dirty or have corrosion. 

[flyingchump]

9 hours ago, kerry said:

I would clean the cable and contacts between the starter and solenoid.  They might be dirty or have corrosion. 

I recently replaced the motor mounts and had motor off the firewall (2 weeks ago).  I had to take the starter cable off the solenoid and the ground strap off the firewall.  Everything was cleaned thoroughly.  After cleaning it seemed like the starter was cranking a bit faster with all the connections being cleaned and solid.  I almost suspect that the extra amperage/voltage could have pushed this "dead spot" condition to the surface.

[flyingchump]

9 hours ago, EricJ said:

Could be an opportunity for a SkyTec or a B&C.  Less weight, more efficient, the only real downside is the $$.

 

I'm considering that but I have been taking a BATH financially and I also don't have anyone around me who has made the swap before.  I can physically swap the starters but what about the aluminum baffling and felt seals?  Will it need modification? Will I need a longer starter cable?  I don't want a $585 starter to turn into a $2000 project.  

Also, I've never been within 200lbs of gross weight yet so I'm not worried about that.

[A64Pilot]

Often as has been said tapping frees up the brushes in their holders. but it could also be a bad spot on the armature.

‘If you can have it overhauled it’s likely that it will go for several more decades trouble free, but if the brushes are worn eventually that’s going to arc the armature and you may end up buying a new starter.

There is nothing wrong with the old starters or generators for that matter, they have been working reliably for thousands of hours and decades to still be going in 2021

[RobertGary1]

 

34 minutes ago, A64Pilot said:

Often as has been said tapping frees up the brushes in their holders. but it could also be a bad spot on the armature.

‘If you can have it overhauled it’s likely that it will go for several more decades trouble free, but if the brushes are worn eventually that’s going to arc the armature and you may end up buying a new starter.

There is nothing wrong with the old starters or generators for that matter, they have been working reliably for thousands of hours and decades to still be going in 2021

Not sure I'd agree with that. In the old days with these starters hot starts were a headache. Modern high speed starters are so much easier to start.

-Robert

[PT20J]

I’d vote for the brushes. I think it unlikely a that a dead spot on the armature would be fixed without a slight rotation of the shaft. If money's tight, I’d try just replacing the brushes. If the are really worn down, they can get cocked slightly in the holders and hang up.

Skip

[N201MKTurbo]

You can have this one, it was working fine when I took it off 15 years ago.

you will have to come and get it. The black widows and I have an agreement, I don’t mess with them, they don’t mess with me.

Edited May 18, 2021 by N201MKTurbo

[flyingchump]

18 hours ago, N201MKTurbo said:

You can have this one, it was working fine when I took it off 15 years ago.

you will have to come and get it. The black widows and I have an agreement, I don’t mess with them, they don’t mess with me.

 

So take a trip out to AZ, from NJ, to pick a fight with a bunch of black widows for a 50+ year old starter?..

 

Sounds like a good deal!  I'll leave in the morning. 

Edited May 19, 2021 by flyingchump

[flyingchump]

20 hours ago, A64Pilot said:

Often as has been said tapping frees up the brushes in their holders. but it could also be a bad spot on the armature.

‘If you can have it overhauled it’s likely that it will go for several more decades trouble free, but if the brushes are worn eventually that’s going to arc the armature and you may end up buying a new starter.

There is nothing wrong with the old starters or generators for that matter, they have been working reliably for thousands of hours and decades to still be going in 2021

I agree with these old starters lasting forever with a little maintenance.  I'm going to try to repair/overhaul this old starter.  A few bucks for hopefully another 20 years of service sounds like a good deal.  I haven't had an trouble with hot starts yet and the old starters seem to be more durable/serviceable than the new lightweight starters.

[N201MKTurbo]

12 minutes ago, flyingchump said:

So take a trip out to AZ, from NJ, to pick a flight with a bunch of black widows for a 50+ year old starter?..

 

Sounds like a good deal!  I'll leave in the morning. 

Looking forward to seeing you!

[flyingchump]

So I figured it out! 

I removed the starter and brought it to a local "old timer" known for this type of stuff.  The brushes and commutator were  dirty due to an old oil leak that was repaired last year but the real problem was the solder joint between the terminal and the field winding had broken.  The "old-timer" soldered it back together, cleaned the brushes and brush holder, and refinished the commutator.

No new parts needed aside from a bit of solder.  Brushes are in good shape with plenty of meat left.  

Reinstalled the starter with my lovely assistant (wife) this morning and it worked!  She (the plane) cranked right up. 

Photo is of my wife's hands so people would actually believe her when she says "I helped fix the plane"

[A64Pilot]

probably last 20 years

[carusoam]

Most beautiful hands I’ve seen!

+1 for family helping with the plane!

+1 for old timers keeping these things alive.

Great Pirep.

Best regards,

-a-

[Yourpilotincommand]

Removing/replacing a starter is a pain… not the starter itself, but the lower cowling… and trying not to damage the rubber intake duct.