Hank Posted October 21, 2020 Report Posted October 21, 2020 10 minutes ago, irishpilot said: Ohio trips in the winter will be an issue with icing. Winter flying in Ohio is possible. I was based on the banks of the Ohio River (KHTW) for seven years, with 3 years as a VFR pilot. But I still took my C from there to the Carolinas and back at Thanksgiving and Christmas. No, not every year, but a high percentage. I have yet to hear of even an Inadvertent Icing M20-C. Now in Lower Alabama, it's much less of an issue. Quote
Schllc Posted October 21, 2020 Report Posted October 21, 2020 Everybody’s experience and comfort level is different. Whatever works for you is what’s important. I bought my first ovation before I got my ppl, because I wanted to do all of my ifr training in the plane I was going to fly. I hired a flight instructor that was looking for a job flying freight, and probably flew 30-40 hours with him in my ovation until I went solo, then I flew with a variety of instructors until I was ready for my ifr checkride. as a result I became very comfortable and proficient in the actual airplane I fly. I definitely found it different from the 172 I trained in, but the Mooney in many ways is easier to fly because it’s behavior is predictable and crisp. I do not believe moving from a trainer into an ovation is a bad idea if you expect to use the airplane. I have flown close to 200 hours a year since I started flying and almost all of that has been in mooney’s. I say do it, if you really use the plane you will not regret it. I do advise you to go straight into ifr training and fly frequently. Quote
Ron McBride Posted October 21, 2020 Report Posted October 21, 2020 When I bought my Mooney, I had not flown much in 10 years. I had lots of complex time previously. My check out was not as good as it should have been. I learned more about flying my Mooney in 40 hrs, instrument training than the previous 100 hours very. Get lots of good training. 1 Quote
J-D Posted October 21, 2020 Author Report Posted October 21, 2020 1 hour ago, KLRDMD said: Different people have different experiences. Over the last 20 years I have bought and sold 17 airplanes. The majority were trades of some sort. At this point I own my current airplane free and clear (worth well over $100k) with no personal dollars in it. I made enough buying, selling and trading, all for personal use, to make that happen. YMMV but if I did it, it must be possible. I agree one can make money buying/selling it. I just cannot see myself dedicating a lot of time to pick a good plane each time. Quote
MATTS875 Posted October 21, 2020 Report Posted October 21, 2020 2 hours ago, carusoam said: JD, We have a couple of people that started with more Airplane than they should have... so... Lets see if we can adjust your understanding.... Saving money doesn’t make as much sense when compared to saving your life... There have been some very dedicated people, that have run into trouble... If you have time and money for training... Get the best plane to match your mission... get the best training to match your skill level and your plane... Don’t save money doing this by yourself... (that is a bad mix) A long distance, cross country plane, can cross many weather systems... You will become an expert in weather prediction, icing avoidance, and thunderstorm avoidance... early on you need to avoid running out of fuel, and flying VFR into crummy visibility.... How does that sound? Getting the right plane is one thing... being able to use it properly, is an investment in yourself... more of a how to get to the Mooney level... than to say get a different plane... Get the right instruction... PP thoughts only, not a CFI... Best regards, -a- Very well said. Investing in your training is a key factor. I’ll be glad when I can get focused on my IFR ticket. There are times that I feel I need to retake my private pilot ticket. 1 Quote
J-D Posted October 21, 2020 Author Report Posted October 21, 2020 1 hour ago, N9405V said: Ok, I’m actually doing something very similar to you. I’m in Austin and do real estate deals in Dallas, Houston and San Antonio. I’ve got a 1970 M20E. The biggest issue is what do you need to do when you get to your destination? Most FBO’s only allow crew cars to be borrowed for an hour or so. If you’re making a days worth of sales calls you’ll need to rent a car. So for me, it’s an almost wash time wise to just jump in my car and drive versus going to the airport, getting the plane ready, flying, doing the fbo shuffle and then getting the rental car. Also, if you have times where you absolutely have to be there are you going to get bit by “get rhereitis?. Really depends on what your flexibility is. Don’t get me wrong, there have been days where I’ve had inspections on Dallas and Houston where I just needed to show up and flying was the perfect answer. It really depends on what your schedule is when you get there. Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk This is a great point! In my case, I will be visiting the same location in those cities and they are within 10 miles of an airport. So, I can take the Uber to the office. I have thought about “get rhereitis" a lot actually. My conclusion is that I can always drive if I absolutely need to be there or just go another day. I do sometimes delay my travel if I don't feel 100% for driving 6-8 hours roundtrip that day too. Quote
Parker_Woodruff Posted October 21, 2020 Report Posted October 21, 2020 12 hours ago, KLRDMD said: Different people have different experiences. Over the last 20 years I have bought and sold 17 airplanes. The majority were trades of some sort. At this point I own my current airplane free and clear (worth well over $100k) with no personal dollars in it. I made enough buying, selling and trading, all for personal use, to make that happen. YMMV but if I did it, it must be possible. Depends on the state where you'll own the plane, too. Some jurisdictions aren't too friendly. Quote
Missile=Awesome Posted October 21, 2020 Report Posted October 21, 2020 11 hours ago, Schllc said: Everybody’s experience and comfort level is different. Whatever works for you is what’s important. I bought my first ovation before I got my ppl, because I wanted to do all of my ifr training in the plane I was going to fly. I hired a flight instructor that was looking for a job flying freight, and probably flew 30-40 hours with him in my ovation until I went solo, then I flew with a variety of instructors until I was ready for my ifr checkride. as a result I became very comfortable and proficient in the actual airplane I fly. I definitely found it different from the 172 I trained in, but the Mooney in many ways is easier to fly because it’s behavior is predictable and crisp. I do not believe moving from a trainer into an ovation is a bad idea if you expect to use the airplane. I have flown close to 200 hours a year since I started flying and almost all of that has been in mooney’s. I say do it, if you really use the plane you will not regret it. I do advise you to go straight into ifr training and fly frequently. Isn’t a newly minted Single engine land pilot fairly equal regarding “experience “? Comfort level is internal and has nothing to do with anything except, well, that pilots “comfort”. Don’t buy, rent. Obtain experience in complex and obtain IFR. Then buy a plane. I know “it” can and “is” done. Is it safe? Is it wise? What I hear is the original poster balking because they don’t want to bother buying and selling multiple planes. Don’t. Rent the plane and instructor... Quote
kris_adams Posted October 21, 2020 Report Posted October 21, 2020 I did my IR training and test in my J. I love that I didn't do it in another plane, especially a rental. 11 years later I'd do the exact same thing. Good luck! Quote
Missile=Awesome Posted October 21, 2020 Report Posted October 21, 2020 3 hours ago, Kris_Adams said: I did my IR training and test in my J. I love that I didn't do it in another plane, especially a rental. 11 years later I'd do the exact same thing. Good luck! How many total hours when you bought your J and began IR? Quote
Missile=Awesome Posted October 21, 2020 Report Posted October 21, 2020 3 hours ago, Kris_Adams said: I did my IR training and test in my J. I love that I didn't do it in another plane, especially a rental. 11 years later I'd do the exact same thing. Good luck! What make and model for Private instruction? Quote
tmo Posted October 21, 2020 Report Posted October 21, 2020 (edited) FWIW, I had c/a 80h TT when I bought my K. Haven't started on the IR practical part, since I have to pass a crapton of exams first. PPL in a C152; single digit hours in similar planes (Tecnam P2008JC, C172). Edited October 21, 2020 by tmo Quote
Schllc Posted October 21, 2020 Report Posted October 21, 2020 5 hours ago, Missile=Awesome said:Isn’t a newly minted Single engine land pilot fairly equal regarding “experience “? Comfort level is internal and has nothing to do with anything except, well, that pilots “comfort”. Don’t buy, rent. Obtain experience in complex and obtain IFR. Then buy a plane. I know “it” can and “is” done. Is it safe? Is it wise? What I hear is the original poster balking because they don’t want to bother buying and selling multiple planes. Don’t. Rent the plane and instructor... Actually no, i would not say is not all “fairly equal”. I have a friend who has been working on their ppl for 7 years, has close to 300 hours and hasn’t taken a checkride. He even owns a cirrus and a Pilatus, and flys with an instructor all the time! I also met a kid, who went through the ppl in two months with the minimum hours required. I started flying when I was 14, stopped for 20 years then started again, and flew with others for several years until time and finances aligned for me to fly regularly, which is when I decided to get my license. I understand some of the folks here think it’s a mistake to move from a trainer to a mooney. They are all entitled to their opinion, I would say for some it may be a mistake, it was not in my case. It was the right path. I evaluated the options and felt it was actually safer to accumulate all the time I could in the plane I was going to be actually flying. On top of that, renting a complex, high performance plane where I am was 350 an hour wet without the instructor. I would have pumped $30k into the ether. Instead I bought my first ovation, put 350 hours on it and sold it for 10k more than I paid for it. The guy asked for some advice and he can decide what’s best for him, without us bashing each other’s opinions 2 Quote
Missile=Awesome Posted October 21, 2020 Report Posted October 21, 2020 56 minutes ago, Schllc said: Actually no, i would not say is not all “fairly equal”. I have a friend who has been working on their ppl for 7 years, has close to 300 hours and hasn’t taken a checkride. He even owns a cirrus and a Pilatus, and flys with an instructor all the time! I also met a kid, who went through the ppl in two months with the minimum hours required. I started flying when I was 14, stopped for 20 years then started again, and flew with others for several years until time and finances aligned for me to fly regularly, which is when I decided to get my license. I understand some of the folks here think it’s a mistake to move from a trainer to a mooney. They are all entitled to their opinion, I would say for some it may be a mistake, it was not in my case. It was the right path. I evaluated the options and felt it was actually safer to accumulate all the time I could in the plane I was going to be actually flying. On top of that, renting a complex, high performance plane where I am was 350 an hour wet without the instructor. I would have pumped $30k into the ether. Instead I bought my first ovation, put 350 hours on it and sold it for 10k more than I paid for it. The guy asked for some advice and he can decide what’s best for him, without us bashing each other’s opinions I, and hopefully the original poster, appreciate your additional comments. Not meant to be “bashing”, but that is obviously how you took it. Apologies for that. I wish the original poster well in his decision. Quote
carusoam Posted October 21, 2020 Report Posted October 21, 2020 5 hours ago, Schllc said: I understand some of the folks here think it’s a mistake to move from a trainer to a mooney. The guy asked for some advice and he can decide what’s best for him, without us bashing each other’s opinions General thoughts around here... 1) Best to train in a trainer... Because that is what they are designed for... 2) you get a more broad background in aviation by flying different aircraft... a better feel for all planes when you are done. 3) Some people have trained in their Long body for their PPL... 4) Training for the IR, it is always recommended to use your own Mooney... 5) Moving from trainer to a Mooney is highly recommended... 6) If jumping ahead to turbo or 280+hp... additional training is highly recommended... things just happen faster with more power... being in the FLs adds to the challenges.... thin air is not really friendly to people and machines... PP thoughts only, Not a CFI... Best regards, -a- Quote
J-D Posted October 22, 2020 Author Report Posted October 22, 2020 Thank you everybody. I really appreciate sharing your thoughts and experience with me. They are very important for a person like me to make an informed decision. Quote
J-D Posted October 22, 2020 Author Report Posted October 22, 2020 5 hours ago, Schllc said: I evaluated the options and felt it was actually safer to accumulate all the time I could in the plane I was going to be actually flying. On top of that, renting a complex, high performance plane where I am was 350 an hour wet without the instructor. I would have pumped $30k into the ether. This is along my thinking. I don't mind paying $5-8K for renting while getting my PPL. Considering my landings, I am actually happy to do it another person's airplane rather than mine. That being said, paying higher for IFR training plus dealing with potential scheduling issues will only delay my progress. In addition, as you pointed out, instead of paying that amount for rental I can apply to my budget or just keep it in the bank for unexpected things. 1 Quote
J-D Posted October 22, 2020 Author Report Posted October 22, 2020 1 hour ago, carusoam said: General thoughts around here... 1) Best to train in a trainer... Because that is what they are designed for... 2) you get a more broad background in aviation by flying different aircraft... a better feel for all planes when you are done. 3) Some people have trained in their Long body for their PPL... 4) Training for the IR, it is always recommended to use your own Mooney... 5) Moving from trainer to a Mooney is highly recommended... 6) If jumping ahead to turbo or 280+hp... additional training is highly recommended... things just happen faster with more power... PP thoughts only, Not a CFI... Best regards, -a- Thank you for the list. I had not articulated this well but this would pretty much be my approach to the entire process. Quote
kris_adams Posted October 22, 2020 Report Posted October 22, 2020 19 hours ago, Missile=Awesome said: What make and model for Private instruction? well I did my private in the 80s when I was a kid so the only option was renting...started in a 150 and ended in a warrior for the last little bit. Quote
kris_adams Posted October 22, 2020 Report Posted October 22, 2020 19 hours ago, Missile=Awesome said: How many total hours when you bought your J and began IR? Pretty low time...around 400 hours or so...but that was spread across almost 20 years. Quote
irishpilot Posted October 22, 2020 Report Posted October 22, 2020 Lots of great advice here and from different perspectives. Just for perspective, the USAF takes someone off the street and their first 80-90 hours is in an 1,100 hp T-6A Texan II, then their next 80-90 hours is in a T-1 (based off of Beach 400) or T-38 (supersonic capable). That means someone who starts flying the C-17 or F-35 will have between 180-220 hours total. It's all in the quality of instruction. Find a great Mooney CFI and they'll get you ready. 5 Quote
J-D Posted October 23, 2020 Author Report Posted October 23, 2020 (edited) 12 hours ago, irishpilot said: Lots of great advice here and from different perspectives. Just for perspective, the USAF takes someone off the street and their first 80-90 hours is in an 1,100 hp T-6A Texan II, then their next 80-90 hours is in a T-1 (based off of Beach 400) or T-38 (supersonic capable). That means someone who starts flying the C-17 or F-35 will have between 180-220 hours total. It's all in the quality of instruction. Find a great Mooney CFI and they'll get you ready. Thank you for the insight about the USAF training. I plan to find the best instructor possible. There are two Mooney experienced CFI in Houston, TX according to the Mooneyflyer's website. I contacted both of them well before I started PPL training. One of them told me he is very busy and can only do the transition training, the other CFI told me we could work together (possibly) but scheduling might be a problem to fly as much as I wanted to fly with him. I plan to contact both of them again when I get the airplane and PPL. Edited October 23, 2020 by J-D 1 Quote
carusoam Posted October 23, 2020 Report Posted October 23, 2020 12 hours ago, irishpilot said: Lots of great advice here and from different perspectives. Just for perspective, the USAF takes someone off the street and their first 80-90 hours is in an 1,100 hp T-6A Texan II, then their next 80-90 hours is in a T-1 (based off of Beach 400) or T-38 (supersonic capable). That means someone who starts flying the C-17 or F-35 will have between 180-220 hours total. It's all in the quality of instruction. Find a great Mooney CFI and they'll get you ready. Yes, it is possible... Mooney pilots are human beings... AirForce pilots are pre-selected human beings... Often using things like four years of college and an ROTC program For the pre-selection process... The only thing needed to go that route... Great instruction Lots of Time A ton of dough A single focus, then they add a bunch of other stuff to fill your available hours... Plenty of dedication... While you are doing all that... there is competition... They start with a bunch of people to fill only a few slots... it doesn’t take many mistakes to need a new plan... So... use some caution If things appear to be easier than they are... or cost less than expected... Anybody can fly a GA plane... but it isn’t good for everybody... Safety is everything... As PIC, you are responsible for your own safety... PP thoughts only, not a CFI... Best regards, -a- Quote
FJC Posted November 5, 2020 Report Posted November 5, 2020 Hi J-D, Which of the three options you started with are you leaning toward? Thank you. F Quote
Mufflerbearing Posted November 5, 2020 Report Posted November 5, 2020 I started flying in a 152 and then quit before I got my PPL 27 years ago. I came back to it and flew a 175 tail dragger until someone else did a ground loop in it and bent the plane. It was then that I bought my M20S, finished my PPL in it, took my test in it, promptly started the IFR in it, took my IFR test in it and since I bought the plane just one year ago, I have put over 200 hours on it. It was maybe not the smartest way, but it really worked for me. I think a big part of this decision is 1) your risk tolerance, 2) your capacity to learn, 3) your natural ability. I have a company that teaches high performance driving, so I am familiar with risk. I think I do have a natural talent that transferred from my driving career. I am also dumb as a rock, but still got the PPL and IFR done, so I know you can do it too! 1 Quote
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