380 mile commute. What is the best Mooney for $125,000 purchase price?

[Willie]

Well it sounds like everyone is happy with the Mooney they have. Nobody has said I wish I had bought something else.

 

Can someone with a 231 run my flight plan kcrq to koak and tell me time and burn round trip? The numbers I used for the 231 were not accurate.

 

Thanks!

[SantosDumont]

I used to be based in Tehachapi and would run up to SJC or down to SAN for work.  My dispatch rate in the winter was about 50%.  Unless you like having an O2 hose in your nose, there's not really any need for the K.  If weather is that bad that you need to go high, you're gonna need FIKI to come down through it, and then you might as well just fly SWA.  I'd choose the J.

[donkaye]

1 hour ago, Austintatious said:

I cant open those files, But I have run numerous w&B on the rocket and I have no problem carrying 3 people and bags. 4 people if large might be a problem.

 

Just by pure logic your contention makes no sense... How do you take a 231, put more weight in the nose and then make it more difficult to put weight behind the CG than in the original 231?

 

Here is a W& bal I did for 4 people, 230 for pilot (me) and 3 180lb people + 90 lbs bags and 30 gal of fuel.

Granted, Im only going 1 hour away with that fuel load (190 NM ish) , but this is a Useful load issue, not a CG one.

 

 

 

I didn't say CG.  I said envelope.  If you want to land with an hour of fuel, then you can go someplace ½ hour away.  Not very practical.  I personally am not comfortable landing with less than 12 gallons in the Rocket.  You used Roy Epperson's great program.  I have it, too.  I calculate that your empty weight is 2,162.  That seems pretty low for a Rocket.  The Rocket I used in my calculations weighed in at 2,239.  Your empty weight CG position it apparently a couple of inches back from the one I am using.  Anyway, because of the "Top Hat" envelope, with 70 gallons (for a reasonable flight) of fuel and 3 people, with the Rocket I am using for the calculations, the CG is significantly out of the envelope in the forward direction.  It's even worse with with 2 people and 70 gallons.  Putting one of the people in the back still has it out for the 1st hour of flight.  With your empty weight CG back a bit you can probably make the 2 people in the front work.  Bottom line, though, the Rocket with its heavy engine in the front makes it at most a 2 person cross country airplane.  Additionally, you really have to be careful taxiing or you are in danger of a prop strike because the prop clearance is down around 7".  I know of a few people who have had prop strikes just taxiing.

Unfortunately, many people fly the Rocket out of the envelope.

[donkaye]

26 minutes ago, SantosDumont said:

I used to be based in Tehachapi and would run up to SJC or down to SAN for work.  My dispatch rate in the winter was about 50%.  Unless you like having an O2 hose in your nose, there's not really any need for the K.  If weather is that bad that you need to go high, you're gonna need FIKI to come down through it, and then you might as well just fly SWA.  I'd choose the J.

Ever go across Wyoming in the afternoon in a J?  Best to have a helmet on.  The Tehachapis in the afternoon?  Turbocharging has benefits besides the weather; increased TAS and turbulence mitigation to name a couple.

[Willie]

Check out the 1989 Bravo for $119,000 with GMAX. Seems like a nice plane. 

[Willie]

33 minutes ago, SantosDumont said:

I used to be based in Tehachapi and would run up to SJC or down to SAN for work.  My dispatch rate in the winter was about 50%.  Unless you like having an O2 hose in your nose, there's not really any need for the K.  If weather is that bad that you need to go high, you're gonna need FIKI to come down through it, and then you might as well just fly SWA.  I'd choose the J.

I’m not going to fly in or above ice regardless. Doesn’t matter if I had a J or a K or a Bravo. I would still fly only on nice days. This is suppose to be a fun thing for me. 
 

“Fun” may include smooth air and getting to certain places faster so that why I’m curious about the 231 numbers or turbocharged numbers. 
 

Thanks Again,

Will

[Ragsf15e]

Just be careful thinking you’re good with $14-16k/year.  Maybe guys who are doing owner assisted annuals and most of their own maintenance can keep it that low, but that hasn’t been my experience.  Have multiple people tell you what they spend/year in total costs.  I don’t have my numbers in front of me, but I’d guess - $14k, $22k, $17k for 75 hours/year.  That includes everything and some engine work.  You’ll definitely need to factor that in.  It’s hard to get your mind around this, but yearly costs quickly overcome the purchase price, and they are gone, not coming back at sale.

[Browncbr1]

I’m not sure why no one has suggest to Willie that an E model might make more sense.   80% solo time, as fast (some faster) than a J model.   Less that half the purchase cost, less insurance due to lower hull value, available with Johnson bar.....   some are TN equipped.  ..    377miles doesn’t make any sense to be for a K.   I wouldn’t want to leave $120k sitting on tiedowns...    

[SantosDumont]

Just now, Browncbr1 said:

I’m not sure why no one has suggest to Willie that an E model might make more sense.   

Because he said he had two kids that are going to double in size very quickly.

[SantosDumont]

4 hours ago, donkaye said:

Ever go across Wyoming in the afternoon in a J?  Best to have a helmet on.  The Tehachapis in the afternoon?  Turbocharging has benefits besides the weather; increased TAS and turbulence mitigation to name a couple.

Well I got my PPL in Tehachapi, I just thought that was what flying is supposed to be!

[Browncbr1]

Just now, SantosDumont said:

Because he said he had two kids that are going to double in size very quickly.

Yea, I saw that but an E is ok if that is only 20% of mission.  

[SantosDumont]

Just now, Browncbr1 said:

Yea, I saw that but an E is ok if that is only 20% of mission.  

I have a 12,10, and 8 year old... I couldn't imagine giving them LESS space back there.  

[SantosDumont]

4 hours ago, Willie said:

I’m not going to fly in or above ice regardless. Doesn’t matter if I had a J or a K or a Bravo. I would still fly only on nice days. This is suppose to be a fun thing for me. 
“Fun” may include smooth air and getting to certain places faster so that why I’m curious about the 231 numbers or turbocharged numbers. 

Well, you might want to consider an F.  It's not going to be that much slower than a J, but definitely will cost less.  

I do wish I would have bought an A36 instead, but that's just because I have 3 kids and they don't fit in the Mooney.  I bought the plane for me and with a wet PPL I never thought I would want to put my whole family in it.

But after owning for 4 years I've decided my "fun" plane is going to be a RV because 99% of the time I'm by myself, so I don't need 4 seats, and the Mooney can't fly upside down.

[Bob - S50]

1 hour ago, Ragsf15e said:

Just be careful thinking you’re good with $14-16k/year.  Maybe guys who are doing owner assisted annuals and most of their own maintenance can keep it that low, but that hasn’t been my experience.  Have multiple people tell you what they spend/year in total costs.  I don’t have my numbers in front of me, but I’d guess - $14k, $22k, $17k for 75 hours/year.  That includes everything and some engine work.  You’ll definitely need to factor that in.  It’s hard to get your mind around this, but yearly costs quickly overcome the purchase price, and they are gone, not coming back at sale.

For our J our fixed costs have been about $8000 or $9000 per year. That's about $3000 for hangar, $3000 for annual, and $2000 for insurance plus some other small expenses. We save $30/hr for hour related expenses, so my operating cost is roughly $80/hr.

[MikeOH]

I'm going to pile on with recommending an F.  The way you've described the conditions you will fly in there's no need for a K and I think a J is just spending money you don't need to. The F will perform nearly the same. Further, I don't think the K is going to, practically speaking, reduce your commute time significantly.

I paid around 1/3 of your budget and got WASS and A/P...but no fancy glass stuff; just wasn't important to me.

Rags is spot on with the annual budget: you need to be good with 20K per year. I've been a bit under that, but I am willing to get my hands dirty.

Edited September 13, 2020 by MikeOH

[N231BN]

Well it sounds like everyone is happy with the Mooney they have. Nobody has said I wish I had bought something else.
 
Can someone with a 231 run my flight plan kcrq to koak and tell me time and burn round trip? The numbers I used for the 231 were not accurate.
 
Thanks!

With the current 9kt tailwind at 10,500 my program says 2:11 and 25 gallons.

[Ragsf15e]

5 hours ago, donkaye said:

Ever go across Wyoming in the afternoon in a J?  Best to have a helmet on.  The Tehachapis in the afternoon?  Turbocharging has benefits besides the weather; increased TAS and turbulence mitigation to name a couple.

Every pilot with a family onboard knows not to fly out west past noon in the summer.  That’s a recipe for kids/wife hating flying.  It ain’t that hard to plan family trips in the cool morning weather. 

[JT]

Just took a quick look at what's out there in your price range and here's my vote:

 

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/196449671/1985-mooney-m20j-201-missile-piston-single-aircraft

 

 

[kmyfm20s]

Would be interesting if you could make this work out for you.

 

Edited September 13, 2020 by kmyfm20s

[kmyfm20s]

If you have the ability to fly SWA’s at the last minute and the ability to leave the plane in a hangar/tie down at either end then a J will be the most economical of the 2 choices. In my opinion there is not a FIKI plane with your purchase budget that won’t bite you in the ass in the months after you buy it. Since you are familiar with San Diego, I’m based at KMYF and I have been commuting to the imperial valley by plane for over 15 years. Flights will be scrub 99% of the time because of ice. That said it really has varied from year to year how bad the ice is. I can go 2 or 3 years with very few no go flights but then you will have a bad year when it seems like you can never fly. Most of the time that I can’t fly because of ice I wouldn’t want to fly even if I had a FIKI equipped plane. My recommendation is buy and maintain the best plane you can in your budget even if it means dropping down model. It will make ownership much more enjoyable. BTW I flew my J and fly my S in the mid to high teens more often than Most turbo owners do and the non turbos do just fine. Over a 400 mile trip the difference in trip time is small for planes in the equivalent budget range. 

[Willie]

5 hours ago, Ragsf15e said:

Just be careful thinking you’re good with $14-16k/year.  Maybe guys who are doing owner assisted annuals and most of their own maintenance can keep it that low, but that hasn’t been my experience.  Have multiple people tell you what they spend/year in total costs.  I don’t have my numbers in front of me, but I’d guess - $14k, $22k, $17k for 75 hours/year.  That includes everything and some engine work.  You’ll definitely need to factor that in.  It’s hard to get your mind around this, but yearly costs quickly overcome the purchase price, and they are gone, not coming back at sale.

Understood on costs. I know it can vary dramatically. I’m from an aviation family so Ive seen it. It’s now only after having flown professionally for 18 years that I’m ready to take it on. 

 Thank you for your consideration.

[Willie]

4 hours ago, Bob - S50 said:

For our J our fixed costs have been about $8000 or $9000 per year. That's about $3000 for hangar, $3000 for annual, and $2000 for insurance plus some other small expenses. We save $30/hr for hour related expenses, so my operating cost is roughly $80/hr.

My tie down would be less but other numbers probably about the same. If I can score a hangar for a reasonable price I will. Pretty hard right now here in my area. I may be able to get a “hangar available “ for $500 a month. That’s where the FBO squeezes me in around bigger planes in one of their numerous big hangars. Not guaranteed to be inside always but probably most the time. Thanks for Sharing your numbers!

[Willie]

3 hours ago, MikeOH said:

I'm going to pile on with recommending an F.  The way you've described the conditions you will fly in there's no need for a K and I think a J is just spending money you don't need to. The F will perform nearly the same. Further, I don't think the K is going to, practically speaking, reduce your commute time significantly.

I paid around 1/3 of your budget and got WASS and A/P...but no fancy glass stuff; just wasn't important to me.

Rags is spot on with the annual budget: you need to be good with 20K per year. I've been a bit under that, but I am willing to get my hands dirty.

Thanks for recommendation. I won’t rule out older models but I think of this a bit like buying a house. Not necessarily easy or cheap to buy and sell so I may want to plan for the future and get the plane with a bit more space and capability. 

[Willie]

2 hours ago, kmyfm20s said:

Would be interesting if you could make this work out for you.

 

I would partner because I can be flexible on how I use the plane but that Screaming Eagle isn’t near me. Cool plane though!

[Willie]

2 hours ago, JT said:

Just took a quick look at what's out there in your price range and here's my vote:

 

https://www.controller.com/listing/for-sale/196449671/1985-mooney-m20j-201-missile-piston-single-aircraft

 

 

I saw that Missile. Looks sweet but reaches TBO in about 3 years of my flying. Was hoping for something further from TBO. There is another Missile on  trade a plane for  $90k but looks like it hasn’t seen Much love lately. I need to read up on those but if it’s the same engine that they use in the Cessna 210 conversions then I know that is a killer upgrade in performance.