Flight Instructing in the Era of Covid-19

[mike_elliott]

15 hours ago, kortopates said:

Exactly what my wife is telling me! And of course I don't want to be the one to bring it home either. But thanks!

as is mine

[Danny]

This is a difficult decision with a lot of variables. 

For instance if I was single, I'd be traveling down to the SoCal area about once every 14 days to fly my buddy's Stearman. But right now getting on an airplane exposes my wife to what I consider to be a higher level of risk than I want to take on for what is, as emotionally satisfying as open cockpit acro is, a leisure activity.

My decision would be different if the travel was work related.

To the OP, here's what I would consider:

Make yourself available to your customers. Provide and insist upon the use of gloves, N-95 masks and goggles. (Foggles!)

Brief and debrief at a distance, and use the presence of PPE as an opening into a discussion of how we make sound risk management and go/no-go decisions.

When you get home, strip in the garage, and get right into the shower. Your contaminated clothes remain in the garage until alter in the week, when you can safely toss them into the machine.

No students with risk factors.

Flying GA airplanes is inherently dangerous. Doing so during a pandemic is just one more threat you have to manage. I've worn PPE while flying TB patients, it's no big deal. Like any aviating, make sure you focus on the flying. Just like military students have to get used to aviating with a helmet, mask and positive pressure O2, maybe treat the first flight with PPE as just a basic, easy, get-used-to it hop. The USAF called them "dollar rides" and adjusting to that new environment was one of the reasons they're part of the syllabus.

Good luck!

 

[Danny]

12 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

This guy is an MD who apparently felt good enough about the packed flight to choose to get on it but decided to use social medial to bitch about it either way. He’s not to be held accountable for his personal choices, that’s the airlines job. 
-Robert 

He's an MD who the airline is transporting for free so he can do his job. Instead of reaching out to United with his concerns, he choses to make himself a public victim. 

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, Danny said:

He's an MD who the airline is transporting for free so he can do his job. Instead of reaching out to United with his concerns, he choses to make himself a public victim. 

Theme - keep it quiet and don't say anything publicly?  If you see something don't say something publicly.  Protect the business. I for one found it interesting and relevant that this is what flying United looks like today.     I am sure if the MD had reached out to the airline that they would have changed their ways, or more likely they would bury the complaint in their circular file system under the desk?  I found his public picture to be a public service to those who might fly and want to know that they will be packed in close proximity for hours.  Sure, buyer beware, but relevant to be aware of what is current practice.  Some on here seem would rather not have him to have his speech have a public access, or shoot the messenger. Freedom of speech and I was interested to see this man's speech.  

Edited May 12, 2020 by aviatoreb

[aviatoreb]

56 minutes ago, Danny said:

 

Flying GA airplanes is inherently dangerous. Doing so during a pandemic is just one more threat you have to manage. I've worn PPE while flying TB patients, it's no big deal. Like any aviating, make sure you focus on the flying. Just like military students have to get used to aviating with a helmet, mask and positive pressure O2, maybe treat the first flight with PPE as just a basic, easy, get-used-to it hop. The USAF called them "dollar rides" and adjusting to that new environment was one of the reasons they're part of the syllabus.

 

Is it disorienting?  My intuition suggests that flying in PPE would be disorienting and might require some extra training.  Did you get any?

Thanks,
E

[Danny]

11 minutes ago, aviatoreb said:

Is it disorienting?  My intuition suggests that flying in PPE would be disorienting and might require some extra training.  Did you get any?

Thanks,
E

Not at all, Eric. It was in a Lear 35. I think it might have been more of a hassle for the FO who was pilot monitoring on that leg. If I recall, he used the hand microphone to communicate with ATC. The TB patient was intubated and all "filtered up" and heavily sedated. The mask and gloves were contingency protection if the tube somehow came out.

Regarding your analysis of the Cardiologist's United experience, there's nothing wrong with your assessment of his actions. I don't think anybody wants to silence him.

But his actions on social media are damaging to United's reputation and public image. That's his choice, but given that United, a company burning 45 million dollars of cash a day right now, was being extraordinarily generous with their jet, crew, fuel and robust infrastructure, many of us view his actions as selfish and self-serving at the airline's expense.

I agree United's announced policy didn't sync up with how that airplane was boarded, but if he didn't think it was safe, he could have deplaned.

[KLRDMD]

This is from an anesthesiologist in South Africa this morning:

Deaths from starvation are starting to be reported here.

Security officials are starting to overstep the bounds of their of their authority.

Alcohol and criminal gangs have taken over distribution of cigarettes and alcohol since the government ban on legal sales

Into our 7th week of lockdown - 220 deaths, most patients treated in private practice. 20k tested

Even if we completely end lockdown today unemployment will be 50% with only about 20% of independent small businesses reopening

Can't help wondering if the lunatics have taken over the asylum

Eric

Durban

Edited May 12, 2020 by KLRDMD

[aviatoreb]

13 minutes ago, Danny said:

Not at all, Eric. It was in a Lear 35. I think it might have been more of a hassle for the FO who was pilot monitoring on that leg. If I recall, he used the hand microphone to communicate with ATC. The TB patient was intubated and all "filtered up" and heavily sedated. The mask and gloves were contingency protection if the tube somehow came out.

Regarding your analysis of the Cardiologist's United experience, there's nothing wrong with your assessment of his actions. I don't think anybody wants to silence him.

But his actions on social media are damaging to United's reputation and public image. That's his choice, but given that United, a company burning 45 million dollars of cash a day right now, was being extraordinarily generous with their jet, crew, fuel and robust infrastructure, many of us view his actions as selfish and self-serving at the airline's expense.

I agree United's announced policy didn't sync up with how that airplane was boarded, but if he didn't think it was safe, he could have deplaned.

I have a friend who is a local EMT who described how his training for dealing with TB patience is relevant to the current scenario.  Also, the local medical lift company that flies a Pilatus is right across the hangars from my hangar and I have had conversations with them.  Including their ground crew and how they are now spending many hours disinfecting as they are moving many infected patience lately, but this too is something standard in their flight operations, but just more common lately.  Anyway it makes it clear what an extra burden goes along with these operations.

As far as the MD, I could see myself in that situation - needing to travel for the job, promised by the airlines a certain amount of measures to be in effect, and then sitting down in the seat but soon the entire plane becomes full.  Yes a short few minutes to get up and deplane but that might not occur to everyone they can do that before the door closes.  Anyway I could see myself being po'ed at the airline and posting a picture rather than sending a complaint to the anonymous complaint box at the airline.  This fellow has his name and face on the picture stating his position on the situation.  I am not inclined to blame the messenger.  I respect that whether or not he deplaned, the situation he observed was outside of what was promised, and I found it to be relevant and I commend him for getting the information out there.

Edited May 12, 2020 by aviatoreb

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, KLRDMD said:

This is from an anesthesiologist in South Africa this morning:

Deaths from starvation are starting to be reported here.

 

I’ve been making this point lately. How many lives will be lost to starvation due to this economic shutdown? That needs to be part of the calculus in determining a path forward. Waiting until 2022 for a vaccine to be widely available doesn’t seem practical. 
 

-Robert 

[carusoam]

David Calhoun from Boeing has brought Up a good point.... on television this morning...

Something that possibly can be demonstrated to work in other planes... possibly like a Mooney...

1) The airflow in a Boeing Cabin is delivered relatively uniformly at the top of the cabin... and vented out the bottom...

2) This has a tendency of drawing all of the passenger used air in a direction away from themselves as it descends toward the exit vents...

3) If everyone wears a mask... it slows down the exhaled air, coughs and sneezes...

4) Slowing down the used air, will keep it from traveling very far laterally, before it has descended away...

5) He didn’t mention what would happen if everyone used their eyeball vents to supply a concentrated supply of air towards the user or his neighbor....

6) unfortunately with a fast stream of air... it will draw in other sources of neighboring air going towards the user.... as well...

7) If this can work for a Boeing.... it may be possible to demonstrate the same principles in a Mooney...

8) Which way is the air inside the cabin going?

9) Does it circle around a lot?

10) Does it all exit out the vents in the back seats, or baggage floor...?

11) Could those vents be plumbed better to support the top to bottom flow... bring a hose to the bottom of the front seats... to a vent going outside...

12) Are there ways we can enhance airflow using the eyeball vents...?  Ceiling vents...? Or Open windows...

13) Doing our best to not face each other while talking... pretty easy with a headset....

14) Not facing each other... pretty easy as our seats all face the same direction...

 

15) When testing airflow in clean room environments... they use a smoke test... to see which direction the particles are moving around various objects...

16) air is supplied at the top of the room.... and vented out close to the floor....

17) Smoke particles are quite small and have a tendency to float around.... going with the flow of air...

 

18) Anyone with a JUUL device and a phone want to take some video?
 

19) I know from prior experience their is normally some circulating airflow coming from the back seats... 

20) If the factory wants to do an interesting set of experiments that would support CFIs using Mooneys... I have some interesting ideas for them... 

 

These are Only PP thoughts... about airflow in cabins... something to consider If you have decided to go fly with somebody else...

Best regards,

-a-

 

 

[Ibra]

17 minutes ago, carusoam said:

David Calhoun from Boeing has brought Up a good point.... on television this morning...

Something that possibly can be demonstrated to work in other planes... possibly like a Mooney...

I think we need to split "fluid mechanic studies" from “viral diffusion studies”, there was a study of aerodynamic CFD simulation of cyclists/runners and it concluded 10m for runners and the other one 20m for cyclists, ok computational fluid mechanics science but no viral charge in all of that? has someone ever detected the virus that far? where is virus gravity/diffusion and humidity/temperature? meantime, we should buy windsocks to put on heads (wind is highly relevant) and caution wake turbulence each time we cough/sneeze?

Same for airlines, I will wait for detailed studies on virus molecules and empirical data on what happens inside an airline cabin, unless 50% of pax is sick I doubt lot of it has to do with aerosol/air circulation? I think most of it is surface contact (e.g. bags, doors...), inside Mooney air circulation could be highly relevant?

[AH-1 Cobra Pilot]

Here is how the Army views flying in MOPP Gear.  3.1 times as stressful/fatiguing as day flying...

Flight Hour Equivalency

Day                                          1.0

Day Contour & Low Level          1.3

Low Level                                 1.3

Instrument                                1.4

Night                                        1.4

Day NOE                                  1.6

Night Terrain                            2.1

Night Vision Devices                 2.3

Chemical MOPP                       3.1

[carusoam]

The current documentation is saying stay 6’ away with masks... With no defined airflow... For minutes while in a line at stores...

That’s going to be tough inside a Mooney... that can last for hours...

 

Inside a Mooney we have tons of airflow... that is not very well defined...

Somebody with some HVAC skill can define what we have.... and alter some things to get what we need... or improve on what we have...

Otherwise... plexiglass shields similar to a grocery store may be desired...

 

Something that needs some work... but, has some potential for the CFIs that still want to I.

PP thoughts only, hoping to move forward towards a solution...

Best regards,

-a-

[takair]

The picture of a full airline cabin in this day of COVID might benefit GA.  If I had to travel for business, I think I can finally make a reasonable case for taking my plane on reasonable length trips when going solo.  

[aviatoreb]

CFD simulations of fluid dynamics of air spreading in airplane cabins has been studied, and I clip this youtube since notice the date- 2015 but I first saw a talk on this sort of thing getting close to ten years ago.  What is old is trending again.

Separate from diseases spreading when anyone sneezes, who remembers the smoking sections in airplanes.  I used to choose the nonsmoking section and I would be one seat immediately in front of some guy smoking in the smoking section.

 

[carusoam]

not being a smoker...

I chose to sit in the smoking section of 727s....

Every accident they were in... the tail section with the airline logo on it survived... according to the headlines In the papers...

And there were plenty of open seats...

[RobertGary1]

The smoking analogy works well. There is no govt rule requiring that you are a smoker nor is there one that prohibits it. Airline travel for civilians is totally voluntary. Fly, don’t fly, it’s your choice. If you get sick from someone you sat next to; that isn’t the airlines fault; it’s a risk you previously accepted. 
 

-Robert

[aviatoreb]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

The smoking analogy works well. There is no govt rule requiring that you are a smoker nor is there one that prohibits it. Airline travel for civilians is totally voluntary. Fly, don’t fly, it’s your choice. If you get sick from someone you sat next to; that isn’t the airlines fault; it’s a risk you previously accepted. 
 

-Robert

So you are advocating bringing back smoking to airplanes?

Edited May 12, 2020 by aviatoreb

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

So you are advocating bringing back smoking to airplanes?

If there is a way to do it such that it doesn’t bother others; absolutely. You can swing your arm as long as you don’t hit me. 
 

-Robert 

[aviatoreb]

1 minute ago, RobertGary1 said:

If there is a way to do it such that it doesn’t bother others; absolutely. You can swing your arm as long as you don’t hit me. 
 

-Robert 

That is a classic quote: Your liberty to swing your fist ends just where my nose begins. Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.  Without that principle we would need no laws and no social norms and constitutional rights would be absolute.  Thee question comes to interpreting how strong our rights we have to swing our fists and how much that impinges on each others noses, on case by case basis.

But why can I not expect to smoke on an airplane without saying that's the other guy's problem and if he/she doesn't like it he/she is free to debark the airplane?

[cferr59]

I have no interest in wearing a mask and being stuffed on a crowded airliner.  I am happy to use my Mooney to travel instead.

[amillet]

2 hours ago, aviatoreb said:

So you are advocating bringing back smoking to airplanes?

I wonder if there are any studies on viruses v. Nicotine laden smoke 

[N9201A]

That is a classic quote: Your liberty to swing your fist ends just where my nose begins. Oliver Wendell Holmes, Jr.  Without that principle we would need no laws and no social norms and constitutional rights would be absolute.  Thee question comes to interpreting how strong our rights we have to swing our fists and how much that impinges on each others noses, on case by case basis.
But why can I not expect to smoke on an airplane without saying that's the other guy's problem and if he/she doesn't like it he/she is free to debark the airplane?

I grew up among chain-smokers without having a choice. Then, as a nonsmoker, l spent years in the military before smoking was frowned upon, again subjected to the cancer-causing pollutants of others. I’ve watched people l car about die from lung cancer; it shouldn’t be on anyone’s list of ways to go.

So personally, I feel that if I can track the smoke I’m tasting to someone’s cig after I’ve asked politely to stop, a taste of knuckle sandwich is a very equitable trade—or sole, depends upon how flexible I feel and how much room we are working with.

[aviatoreb]

10 minutes ago, N9201A said:

I grew up among chain-smokers without having a choice. Then, as a nonsmoker, l spent years in the military before smoking was frowned upon, again subjected to the cancer-causing pollutants of others. I’ve watched people l car about die from lung cancer; it shouldn’t be on anyone’s list of ways to go.

So personally, I feel that if I can track the smoke I’m tasting to someone’s cig after I’ve asked politely to stop, a taste of knuckle sandwich is a very equitable trade—or sole, depends upon how flexible I feel and how much room we are working with.

I feel the same way about smoking.

But my point of raising smoking was initially about the aerodynamics of pollutants in an airplane cabin being a familiar feature to anyone who remembers when airplanes were split into smoking and nonsmoking sections and how ineffective that was.  As a reminder that there is no separating oneself from an other pollutants that may be wafting in a cabin today.

But then I started to speak the "why can't I" thing I just said you quoted as a rhetorical mechanism counter to someone who said that anyone who didn't like the situation should get off the airplane and not take pictures. So I was being a bit snippy, a bit.  Im sorry it got turned around.

E

[the_elkhartian]

Who thought my first post on mooneyspaces would be about a virus and not an airplane? Hi everyone. <wave>

I manage a team of 60 instructors at a very large airline-oriented pilot training school. We never shut down, and that is something I struggled with. Our legal team deemed that we fell under the "essential umbrella" so the decision was made to keep flying.

We gave all of our instructors (~200 total) the option to voluntarily furlough. They would have medical benefits while on furlough and most of them would actually earn more money on unemployment than they make working for us due to the federal $600/week kicker. Only about 30 out of 200 took the voluntary leave. 

We require cloth masks in the facility and supposedly in the airplane, but I doubt many people actually wear them flying. Messes with the mic pickup not to mention the discomfort. We also have hired a cleaning crew that disinfects the airplanes between every flight. It's complicated and expensive, but it's kept the doors open.

So far, and to my surprise, we have had zero confirmed cases of COVID. I'm really torn on the issue (I don't believe for a second that training kids to be airline pilots in 5+ years is essential like a nurse at a hospital, or a stocker at a grocery store).

We teach new pilots from the very beginning to "accept no unnecessary risk". I still don't think we understand the risks, and I was pretty ardently opposed to continuing operations and putting our students and instructors at risk. I was overruled.

I initially sat out from flying, but in the past few weeks I've started doing a stage check here and there. I don't want to get COVID, but I feel like at this point the risk of me getting COVID in the flight training environment isn't significantly higher than getting it from all the complacent people that bump into me at the grocery store or home depot (not wearing masks). It's tough....but I guess I'm leaning more towards the "get back to normal and deal with the fallout as it happens" camp as opposed to the "hide in the bunker until this is over" camp, because this isn't going to be over any time soon.