End of squawk codes?

[RobertGary1]

Once ATC is all upgraded for ADS/B what will be the purpose of a squawk code? I can see everyone's N number from my iPad now. 

 

-Robert

[RLCarter]

16 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Once ATC is all upgraded for ADS/B what will be the purpose of a squawk code? I can see everyone's N number from my iPad now. 

 

-Robert

Can you see aircraft that do not have ADS-B?

[RobertGary1]

Just now, RLCarter said:

Can you see aircraft that do not have ADS-B?

More and more everyday. Eventually squawk and ident will be considered for the old classic planes.New pilots will look at squawk codes like today's students look at ADF's.

 

-Robert

[kortopates]

Currently  Squawk codes are very important to TRACONS and centers to differentiate different types of traffic, which is all based on different series of codes. Although we can imagine that technology could be utilized to redesign a completely new method of tagging done by controllers it would likely require a costly evolutionary change to their software that would also necessitate major re-training of all controllers. A huge cost and  not all traffic is using Ads-B; although it would be easy to say no services at all without Ads-B. However the military is an example of non-ads-b traffic they still actively manage. Right now Ads-B sits on top of their current system without actually changing anything so its really hard to imagine they could afford to retire the current system and come up with something else entirely different (no longer based on a transmitted code but one associated with an N number). Controllers use different series to differentiate traffic, civilian uses I am aware consist of at least these 4:

• non-participating VFR traffic (1200) from participating traffic i.e. VFR Flight following
• IFR traffic with both departure and destination within the TRACON, such traffic doesn't need a full flight plan, just an abbreviated flight plan necessary to tag the aircraft for local TRACON use
• IFR traffic that originated outside or with a destination outside of the TRACON, such traffic needs a full flight plan entered into the system to facilitate hands off's to adjoining centers or TRACONS
• Some towers get their own series of VFR squawk codes to tag aircraft landing in their Class D
• .... (probably several others)

 

Edited May 5, 2020 by kortopates

[Immelman]

Good question! I wonder if perhaps we'll be able to do away with them and set the transponder to some discrete code depending on flight rules, when operating in airspace requiring ADS-B...

Over the ocean you squawk 2000 out of radar contact..... on a transcon (pre-corona-plague) it was usual to get one, sometimes two new transponder codes assigned from ATC as the country was traversed. Presumably because 4096 wasn't enough.

Edited May 5, 2020 by Immelman

[EricJ]

At our last airport pancake breakfast thing I talked to one of our local tower controllers about stuff like this and was told that they do not see any ADS-B info, so no tail numbers.   They see your squawk code, ground speed, and reported altitude.   If you're squawking 1200, you're a blue dot.

So squawk codes are apparently still very useful for them.   I suspect this won't be true forever, but right now it's still a thing.

 

[FloridaMan]

Supposedly 978 UAT anonymous mode is truly anonymous 

[RobertGary1]

1 hour ago, FloridaMan said:

Supposedly 978 UAT anonymous mode is truly anonymous 

I could see a rule that says you can't use anonymous mode in class C, etc.

 

I asked our class C controller how my ADS-B was doing after I got it installed. He responded with "One moment while I go check". So clearly its not in front of them now. But I have to imagine that's in the plan. Wasn't ADS-B partially sold as a way to improve ATC and routing?

 

-Robert

[EricJ]

10 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

I could see a rule that says you can't use anonymous mode in class C, etc.

 

I asked our class C controller how my ADS-B was doing after I got it installed. He responded with "One moment while I go check". So clearly its not in front of them now. But I have to imagine that's in the plan. Wasn't ADS-B partially sold as a way to improve ATC and routing?

 

-Robert

Improved spacing, ultimately, and better coverage.    That's mostly driven by the WAAS GPS location data, though, not any of the ID data.   I think the identification data is suppressed for privacy, believe it or not.   They need to know where a target is for separation, but they don't need to know who it is to provide separation.

 

[jlunseth]

So, how are you going to tell ATC - discretely - that you have been hijacked.  Granted, it is something you want to think about doing anyway, because knowing you are hijacked “they” might be more willing to shoot you down. But how are you going to tell them?

[RobertGary1]

2 minutes ago, EricJ said:

Improved spacing, ultimately, and better coverage.    That's mostly driven by the WAAS GPS location data, though, not any of the ID data.   I think the identification data is suppressed for privacy, believe it or not.   They need to know where a target is for separation, but they don't need to know who it is to provide separation.

 

Yet all that private data shows up on my iPad and my 375. I know more about traffic than atc does.  
 

-Robert

[EricJ]

Just now, RobertGary1 said:

Yet all that private data shows up on my iPad and my 375. I know more about traffic than atc does.  
 

-Robert

Feds vs the rest of us.    Our local controller told me he'd love to have a tablet and use fr24 or a similar app during work, but they're not allowed to have personal electronics.

Even on FR24 a ton of stuff shows up as BLOCKED or similar, and I've not seen that on my tablet, yet, I suppose.

 

1 minute ago, philip_g said:

Aircraft at 7435 feet and 128 knots turn 10 right for traffic. Yeah, works great.

Uh, no, they're separating controlled traffic from uncontrolled targets.   Do people really not get that?

 

[Andy95W]

3 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

I could see a rule that says you can't use anonymous mode in class C, etc.

 

That's already the case.  Whenever a squawk code is inputted into a transponder (like when you're assigned one to enter the Class C) anonymous mode must deactivate on its own and the squawk must be parroted correctly by the ADS-B transmitter.

[GeeBee]

Every time you are handed off to Milan control they tell you (and everyone else) to squak 1000. The Italians have no problem with everyone on the same code!

 

[dmevans]

Some interesting thoughts on here. I am currently a TOWER/TRACON controller for the FAA. Unfortunately, our current systems are highly dependent upon beacon codes and I don't see them going away anytime soon. Our systems are comprised of very disjointed systems that we can barely get to talk to one another on a good day. Hopefully one day we can get there, but the FAA would essentially need to rewrite the entire software platform. Hardware is a whole different ball of wax. As of now, any controller can see ADSB data by entering a few commands. It is not displayed by default. I've had aircraft squawking 1200 around a busy uncontrolled airport in conflict with some of my aircraft on flight following. I was able to pull up the aircraft information to make a blind broadcast to issue traffic. Sure enough, they were monitoring the frequency and replied "I've got him on ADSB".

 

If you guys have any further questions, SHOOT!

[EricJ]

32 minutes ago, philip_g said:

They already do that.

My god!   The future has arrived!

 

[dmevans]

1 hour ago, philip_g said:

nobody has questions for a level 7 up/down. Just kidding. Hope you're getting the 5/10 gravy. We are in the Z.

Yep. On my 10 off. What facility are you at? What model Mooney?

[ragedracer1977]

8 hours ago, EricJ said:

At our last airport pancake breakfast thing I talked to one of our local tower controllers about stuff like this and was told that they do not see any ADS-B info, so no tail numbers.   They see your squawk code, ground speed, and reported altitude.   If you're squawking 1200, you're a blue dot.

So squawk codes are apparently still very useful for them.   I suspect this won't be true forever, but right now it's still a thing.

 

NorCal Tracon sees them.  I was climbing out of Mather, VFR.  I switched over to approach to get FF, and the guy was calling me out as traffic to a plane in front of me (I had him in sight, we were getting close). Controller called me out by tail number asking if I was on frequency.  

[RobertGary1]

38 minutes ago, ragedracer1977 said:

NorCal Tracon sees them.  I was climbing out of Mather, VFR.  I switched over to approach to get FF, and the guy was calling me out as traffic to a plane in front of me (I had him in sight, we were getting close). Controller called me out by tail number asking if I was on frequency.  

Im based out of Mather. When I asked to check m y ADs-b he said he’d have to go check. So they have it but not in front of me. Today they continuously called me 92v instead of 93v. Eventually I gave up correcting them. 
 

-Robert 

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, dmevans said:

If you guys have any further questions, SHOOT!

You even used a software package called FlexIDS? It shows you info about aircraft types, weather around the area etc. The FAA bought the system. I worked on it. 
 

-Robert 

[ragedracer1977]

21 minutes ago, RobertGary1 said:

Im based out of Mather. When I asked to check m y ADs-b he said he’d have to go check. So they have it but not in front of me. Today they continuously called me 92v instead of 93v. Eventually I gave up correcting them. 
 

-Robert 

Was that you landing as I was on downwind? Friday right about 8p

[dmevans]

1 hour ago, RobertGary1 said:

You even used a software package called FlexIDS? It shows you info about aircraft types, weather around the area etc. The FAA bought the system. I worked on it. 
 

-Robert 

Yep!! I used ACE-IDS when I worked at Hayward Tower in the Bay Area. Pretty nice system. Here at Fresno we have a dos based system from the 90's. Lol. Systems Atlanta. 

[RobertGary1]

2 hours ago, ragedracer1977 said:

Was that you landing as I was on downwind? Friday right about 8p

I flew the approach Friday evening but was probably on the ground by 6:30- 7. 
 

-Robert

[47U]

The conspirator side of me thinks ADSB is the pathway to user fees.

tom

[ragedracer1977]

7 hours ago, RobertGary1 said:

I flew the approach Friday evening but was probably on the ground by 6:30- 7. 
 

-Robert

Flight aware says it was you.  

You landed at 7:43, I landed at 7:47